Nazaroo

mod note: spit from BCH thread Gospels deliberately written to confuse non-believers!

Yeah, except for a few problematic facts.

According to Koestler, the East European Jews aren't real Jews. They are descendants of the Khazar Empire, a group who adopted Judaism as 'camoflauge' to escape persecution from the Islamic Arabs. So the 'Ashkenazim' are actually just a people with really really bad luck.

Let's not leave out the fact that the majority of Jews in Poland (largest country with a Jewish pop.) had already converted to Christianity by Hitler's time, and that didn't seem to help them much against Hitler's tanks.

Secondly, does it specify in that prophecy where the Western wealthy Zionist Jews would secretly cooperate with Hitler to have the 'racially inferior' fake Jews massacred while the 'real' ones (the Sephardim) went off to form their own country?

I'm a bit suspicious of prophecies about Jews, especially when Christians can't even keep the various tribes and kingdoms of the Israelites straight.

I haven't even mentioned Wexler's book on the non-Jewish Origins of the Sephardic Jews, which would leave us with no real Jews at all.

What have you got that can sort that out?


P.S. Oh, and one more thing: The largest massacre of 'Jews' and non-Jews was by Stalin, not Hitler. And Stalin and his leutenants were Jews... (or were they?). Damn. I think you used up all the prophecies trying to force-fit Hitler. Now you don't have any left for the other massacres.

Oh Jesus I almost forgot the fact that large numbers of Jews became 'Jehovah's Witlesses' in a lame attempt to pass themselves off as Christians, although this wasn't entirely effective in Hitler's Germany. And they still join the JWs today. As a matter of fact, the JW headquarters in NY is run by Jews.

Still not sure how this fits into OT or NT prophecy, but one thing is clear: Even with the Jews writing all of the JW material, they still can't predict anything worth a shit.

RED DAVE

From Nazaroo:
Let's see about these "facts."

From Nazaroo:
I can't find a good link, but Koestler's thesis has been disproved by DNA evidence. The majority of the DNA of Eastern European Jews comes from Western Europe and the Middle East.

From Nazaroo:
Please document this assertion about conversion of a majority of Polish Jews. As far as I know, this is untrue.

From Nazaroo:
While collaboration between the Jewish Establishment and the nazis is well-known, I think you have gone a bit far here, to say the least.

From Nazaroo:
That's true.

From Nazaroo:
This is racism. people who convert to Judaism, regardless of ethnic background, are considered Jews. The distinction between Jews and "real" Jews is moot.

From Nazaroo:
Outrageous. The largest massacres of Jews were by Hitler.

From Nazaroo:
Stalin was not a Jew, nor was Lenin. Trotsky, and many other leading Bolsheviks were Jews, but by no means all of them.

From Nazaroo:
Please document this. As far as I know, no significant numbers of Jews became Jehovah's Witnesses, in Germany or anywhere else.

From Nazaroo:
Both these statesments are, as far as I know, blatantly false. Please provide documentation or retract them. In my opinion, they smack of antisemitism.

From Nazaroo:
Jews did not write the "JW material." All this stuff is extemely gamey.

RED DAVE

Nazaroo

I was going to let this go, except you create as much disinformation as you try to remove, and at the same time have made ridiculous and unsupportable charges of 'racism' against me personally.

I don't care if you've posted here for a thousand years.
Where the fuck do you get off calling me a racist and an anti-semite?


Listen to yourself. Koestler, who's work is based upon race and tribal migrations, identities and cultures, and their historical movements, you don't identify as racist at all.

In fact, in the most absurd manner, you address Koestler on his own terms, claiming his work has been 'refuted' by ....what? RACIAL evidence. That is, presumably his identification of the Ashkenazim with the Khazars is wrong, not because its 'racial' in nature, but because 'racial' evidence contradicts his specific thesis.

But your absurd 'racial' evidence is meaningless, since the majority of EVERYONE in Eastern Europe has genetic components from a mixture of Western European (Nordic? White European) and Middle Eastern (Mongol, Iranian, Turkish, Arab) DNA.

While this fact makes Eastern European Jewry indistinguishable from Eastern Europeans generally, it has no significance at all for Koestler's work, which is esssentially historical in nature and traces tribal groups and their cultural evolution.

So you didn't disprove Koestler, although you should have, and you talked like a racist, although you shouldn't have.

How transparently assinine.


Go to Poland, and look at the Polish people. They are all Jews, whether they know it or not. So are large portions of Eastern Europe everywhere. In fact, Hitler's great plan failed, mainly because he missed the forest for a few trees.

Not far enough. Now that you've admitted the essential political fact, what else is there to say, except the Jews who cooperated with Hitler were murderers?


Yep.


Here is your first overt charge of racism against me.
And its based upon absolutely nothing. This is bullshit.

I only made the humorous point that Koestler excludes the Ashkenazim while Wexler excludes the Sephardim, leaving no Jews left.

But it is telling that you saw no wit or humour in that, but suddenly went off in a mistaken knee-jerk reaction. You must be a Sephardic Jew. What hypocrisy.

Its okay for Koestler to crap on the Ashkenazim without raising any spectres of 'racism', but when Wexler craps on the Sephardim you go ape. What crap is this?

But the joke is on you. While Koestler is a medeocre historian with a below average IQ for the task he has set himself, Wexler is a linguistic genius, and hardly unsympathetic to the Sephardic Jews, since he is one.

The only racist here is you.


You yourself are busy pointing out that nothing in the real world is quite what it seems, and suddenly you're offended if someone doesn't come up with the exact same numbers as you do.

But you should be aware by now that the real world is a complicated place that can never be reduced to guys with white and black hats, or any simple stereotypical versions of history, and this doesn't just include 'racist' caricaturization. It includes ALL erroneous simplifications of historical processes.

By no means were all communists Jews. But you have avoided the obvious: that the majority of the communist leaders of that era WERE Jews. And Stalin was a Jew too. Perhaps the biggest and most disappointing one of all.


Why don't you check the JWs own literature which covers the War period? I'm not going to bother to do your homework for you, over such a trivially obvious fact.

When you apologize for your outrageous accusations of 'racism' and 'anti-semitism', I'll think about retracting a few non-germaine historical trivialities.



Again. Cheap innuendoes and insults, and accusations, but no evidence, no proof. Maybe you'd better read up on public libel and slander before spouting off like this. You only hurt whatever cause you think you're serving here. You sound like an ignorant bigot.

In my opinion, its NOT okay to make accusations and innuendos of racism or anti-semitism against people you don't even know without any evidence. And that's an opinion that doesn't require documentation, and doesn't break any libel laws.



Gamey it is young obi wan. Best you become a jedi before experimenting with the dark side it is.

The world is gamey. The truth is gamey.

I didn't make the world. I just live here in it. I call it as I see it. I am not obligated to be any better at it than you, nor am I responsible to you.

Here's a clue:

Take this to heart.

As a Jew, I know one thing. There are five different meanings for the word 'Jew', and they are all useful and important parts of speech and communication.

And for some clown to come along and try to impose a single meaning for the word 'Jew' is just an example of a fool who will never change the world one iota.

Lets count at least five right now:

(1) The OT meaning of 'Jew' Yud: (old classical Heb.) properly translated 'Judahite' - meaning descendant or relative by marriage contract of the tribe of Judah, a son of Jacob.

(2) The NT meaning of 'Jew' Judaios, oi (Koine Greek) properly translated 'Judaean' - meaning a person who is a resident and citizen of a region of Palestine encompassing Jerusalem. Racially (tribally), such people were descendants of the three surviving tribes (Judah, Benjamin, Levi) of the Southern Kingdom of Judah taken to Babylon and who returned to build the 2nd Temple.

Neither of these groups of people in the Bible have any direct relation or correspondence with the thre MODERN meanings of the word 'Jew'.

(3) A Person who practices the modern religion in its various main forms, namely Judaism, a syncretic religion forged out of the post-Roman/Jewish War period, through the never-ending quibbling of the surviving rabbans, pharisees, zealots, essenes, zadokites, and various Jews of the diaspora. For instance, someone who practices and is accepted and recognized by the institutions of conservative, Reformed, or Orthodox Judaism.

This is the meaning that you are trying to shove down my throat. But it fails to include probably the majority of Western Jews, namely

(4) Those who are descended from those who previously at some point in history practiced Judaism or ancient Israelite religion in some historical place and period. The majority of these so-called 'Jews by race' are of course atheists, agnostics, and heretics of various stripes and colours. And they also include practically all the human tribes of mankind in some mixed form or other.

(5) An Israeli. That is, someone who is a citizen of Israel, and usually someone born there, whose descendants have never left the place. And these Jews don't walk, talk or act like any of the other Jews we have so far described.

I am a Jew. I will not tell you whether I am an Ashkenaz or a Sephari. I will not tell you which of the five main definitions of Jew, or how many of them apply to me. Because that's none of your business.

Its enough that I say I am a Jew, and take all the flack that this brings upon me from the rest of the great unwashed masses.

Anti-semite? Yes I had an (great) Auntie Shemite in my family a few generations back. My father used to call her Auntie Climax. He was a comedian.

RED DAVE

From [N]azaroo:
I didn't call you a racist or an antisemite. I characterized some of your remarks as racist and antisemitic, which I believe they are. Specifically, what I said was:

Just for openers:

From Nazaroo:
This happens to be one of the standard antisemitic canards.

Prove it.

And, by the way, the common definition of a Jew is either: (1) a person born of a Jewish mother who has not converted to another religion, specifically Christianity; or (2) a convert to Judaism.

RED DAVE

Nazaroo

Again, you offer one (admittedly popular but) oversimplified definition of 'Jew'.


But let me give you a simple thought-experiment:

If you magically removed every goy from the earth, and only those who called themselves Jews or who thought they were Jews were left, nothing would change.

Jews would be debating about who is a 'true Jew' for the next thousand years among themselves.

The only difference is they'd be tearing at each other's throats undistracted because they'd have no reason to close ranks against any common external enemy.

And that would be a disaster for the Jewish people. The Earth however would not have any appearance that would distinguish it from the earth full of all the other peoples that previously existed.

And thats because the Jews are people, like all the other people of the Earth, warts and all.

laughing dog

Which makes your original post especially ironic and nonsensical, particularly about the JW being run by Jews

spin

What exactly would ever make you think that Stalin, Iosef Vissarionovich Djugashvili, was a Jew, other than through folk etymology?


spin

RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:
From Nazaroo:
Why should I? Koestler advanced a thesis, based on his research, about the origins of the Eastern European Jews. It was interesting, provocative, and, it turned out, wrong.

From Nazaroo:
I referred to DNA evidence not racial evidence.

From Nazaroo:
Your remarks are garbled a best. Koestler was wrong because it turned out that in terms of DNA, Eastern European Jews are closer to Western Europeans and people of the Middle East than to the people of Western Asian like the Khazars.

From Nazaroo:
Ready .. set ... go!

From Nazaroo:
This is true; however, the DNA mix of Eastern European Jews is somewhat different from those of other people of Eastern Europe. I have a feeling you don't understand what DNA evidence is.

From Nazaroo:
You are wrong. Eastern European Jews are genetically somewhat different from other Eastern European populations.

From Nazaroo:
You are totally wrong. It negates Koestler's work. Since the Eastern European Jews have been shown not to be closely related to the Kahazars, but are much more closely related to Western Europeans and people of the Middle East, they cannot be descended en masse from the Khazars.

From Nazaroo:
1) I did disprove Koestler.

2) I did not speak like a racist.

3) You seem not to understand much about genetics or racism.

From Nazaroo:
I think you need to go light on the epithets, dude.

From RED DAVE:
From Nazaroo:
This is without a doubt one of the dumbest remarks I have read around here in awhile.

As a matter of fact, I have been to Poland. The rather large-bodied, fair-haired "average" Pole does not look Jewish at all.

As to how "great" Hitler's plan was, I find your choice of adjective strange. Hitler's plan failed because the Germans were defeated by the Allies: primarily the Russians in the East and the Americans and British in the West.

Please document your assertion about Poles and Jews or retract it.

From RED DAVE:
From Nazaroo:
They were, indeed. As were the nazis themselves and huge numbers of Christians who collaborated or actively took part in the Holocaust.

From Nazaroo:
From RED DAVE:
From Nazaroo:
You asserted that since the Eastern European Jews are descended from the Kahazars, and the Sephardic Jews are descended from non-Jews, there are no real Jews. This, to me, is racism, since Jewishness does not depend on ethnicity.

From Nazaroo:
No, I didn't see the "wit and humor in it." It wasn't funny according to my lights.

By the way, I am an Ashkenazic. My family comes from Hungary.

From Nazaroo:
No crap at all. Koestler didn't crap on the Ashenazis; Wexler didn't crap on the Sephardis; you, on the other hand ... .

From Nazaroo:
Like I said, I have no quarrel with Koestler or Wexler, except over issues of history. By the way, it was you who brought up Koestler in the first place. If he's so mediocre, why bring him up?

From Nazaroo:
We shall see.

By the way, since you're new here, the mods do not look kindly on calling people racists.

From RED DAVE:
From Nazaroo:
Really. And where do I do that?

From Nazaroo:
We are not chopping numbers here; we are referring to historical facts which pertain to people's deaths, and yours are wrong.

If you think they're right, provide some evidence. Otherwise, please retract them.

From Nazaroo:
Obfuscation. You made a statement about history and Jewish deaths. It was incorrect. You can't worm away from that.

From RED DAVE:
From Nazaroo:
No shit, Sherlock. Most people learn that in DayCare.

From Nazaroo:
And what, pray tell, is that?

From Nazaroo:
Please document, with numbers, for a majority. Remember, a majority means more than half. Rots of ruck.

From Nazaroo:
This, of course, is an antisemitic canard, for which you have no proof.

From RED DAVE:
From Nazaroo:
Your "trivially obvious fact" happens not to be true.

The burden of proof, for such a ridiculous assertion, is on you. It's you who need to do homework, dude.

From Nazaroo:
That's a strange way of admitting that you consciously quoted facts that weren't true.

My accusations stand: proved by your own words.

From RED DAVE:
From Nazaroo:
The burden of proof, again, is on you to verify such nonsense. Rots of ruck.

I'm really looking forward to seeing data that shows that large numbers of Jews are converting to being JWs and that Jews control the JW. Right. headquarters.

From Nazaroo:
Maybe you better read up on history and the rules for debate around here.

As to what cause I serve, I suggest you read a few of my posts before you spout off. As to who sounds like an ignorant bigot ... .

From Nazaroo:
The evidence is in your remarks.

From Nazaroo:
Again, the evidence bears me out.

From RED DAVE:
From Nazaroo:
I believe I'm older than you.

From Nazaroo:
Best you learn to read history before you start writing about it.

From Nazaroo:
Your writing is gamey.

From Nazaroo:
No, but most people around here recognize a general responsibility to tell the truth. You need to consider that.

From Nazaroo:
I await your wisdom, oh pretentious one.

From Nazaroo:
As a Jew, I know how to count. This sounds like five things but let it pass.

From Nazaroo:
I believe you just called me a "clown" and a "fool." Not cool on your part.

From Nazaroo:
Frankly, I think you're blowing smoke, but I'll leave it up to someone who knows more about this.

In them meantime, how about a source. I could be wrong, but I think you made this up.

From Nazaroo:
Again, I think you made this up. Source please.

From Nazaroo:
And they are, therefore, mainly of historical interest, assuming you are correct. Why quote them?

From Nazaroo:
Nice set of characterizations: Jewish thought as "never-ending quibbling." Frankly, I think your definition is bullshit as it excludes, of course, the crucial issues of descent from a Jewish mother and conversion.

From Nazaroo:
I have shoved nothing down your throat, as your osteolaryngologist will attest. That thing that's stuck in there is your foot.

From Nazaroo:
You've, of course, distorted the definition, and you know it, but let's go on.

From Nazaroo:
1) Not all Israelis are Jews.

2) Your remark about "whose descendants have never left the place" is ridiculous.

3) I have no idea what you mean by: "And these Jews don't walk, talk or act like any of the other Jews we have so far described."

From Nazaroo:
According to the common definition, I think not.

Not if this is you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nazaroo

From Nazaroo:
Ask me if I care.

From Nazaroo:
Then why bring it up. I didn’t ask.

From Nazaroo:
That we will have to discuss.

From Nazaroo:
Actually, most of the antisemitism I’ve experienced in my life has come from members of the middle and upper classes.

From Nazaroo:
The problem for you is that it’s not only popular it’s the one that is used in 2007 to determine who is a Jew.

And using it, you don’t make the cut.

From Nazaroo:
Jews do not, in general, use that word. It's considered offensive. I wonder why you're using it.

From Nazaroo:
Hardly so. It’s not really a major issue. I find this "thought experiment to be quite bizarre.

From Nazaroo:
Most of us, Nazaroo, do quite well without a common external enemy. Perhaps you need on for your identity.

From Nazaroo:
According to who? You? I don’t think you’re exactly an authority

From Nazaroo:
Wrong. It would be a lot emptier.

From Nazaroo:
I suppose there was a point to that.

RED DAVE

Nazaroo

The only part you got right was 'anonymous' Its Scrivener's website. He allows me to contribute articles, and often rewrites them and adds photos, charts, and his own sneaky humour.

I laughed out loud about the year. You must have got that from a random sign-up on some site somewhere. I make it a rule not to volunteer personal information of a specific kind, and fill all forms with garbage that I am required to complete.

You have my IQ correct however.



Wrong again. Its a bastardization of the character 'Pokaroo' from a Canadian kids TV show,
only it also indicates I am a Nazarite. (Read Numbers 6. For someone who claims to be Ashekenaz,
you seem to know surprisingly little about Hebrew religion).

Hence, "Nazaroo". I think its hilarious, but unless you're a Canadian, you aren't likely to get it.




I suggest strongly that you DON'T go to pokaroo.com. Its not the same character at all, and they have their own sense of humour.


The real spelling is polkaroo:

http://www.tvokids.com/framesets/polkaroo.html

laughing dog

Are you sure about that? I mean anyone who claims the Jehovah's witnesses are run by Jews cannot be that bright.