aa5874

After years of being on this forum it has been drawn to my attention that I have missed a most important piece of evidence.

In my research, I came across a writer called Justin Martyr who called himself a Christian during the time of the Emperor Antoninus c 138-161 CE.

I also found writings attributed to a writer called Irenaeus who also claims to be a Christian and supposedly wrote sometime AFTER Justin Martyr in the 2nd century.

But, there is a Massive problem, or I should say, a massive amount of discrepancies. Justin picture of the 1st and 2nd century Jesus movement is vastly different to that of Irenaeus.

The Primary source for the Jesus story by Justin is the "Memoirs of the Apostles" and the Primary sources for Irenaeus are FOUR Gospels called gMark, gMathew, gLuke and gJohn.

Justin NEVER mentioned the FOUR Gospels of Irenaeus and Irenaeus did NOT mention the Memoirs of the Apostles.

This appears to be extermely strange.

But there is more.

The PRIMARY sources for the post-ascension activities of the Apostles and Paul by Irenaeus are the Pauline letters and Acts of the Apostles but Justin has NO sources for the post-ascension activities of the Apostles or Paul--Nothing.


Both supposed Christians writers Justin Martyr and Irenaeus cannot be simultaneously fundamentally credible because their history is too vastly different.

It is more likely that one is fundamentally historically accurate and the other is NOT.

There is a non-apologetic writer called Lucian who appears to corroborate that there were people called Christians in Palestine in the 2nd century who worshiped a crucified man in a book called 'Death of Peregrine'.

Now, let us examine the writings of Irenaeus. Is he credible??

Virtually all the claims made by Irenaeus about the date, chronology and authorship of the FOUR Gospels are Rejected by scholarship. The date of writing of Acts of the Apostles and authorship of some Pauline letters have also been been deduced to be erroneous by many in scholarship.

The succession of bishops supplied by Irenaeus was also contradicted by many apologetic sources and NOT one apologetic source accepted the claim that Jesus was crucified at about 50 years old and claimed Pilate was the Governor of Claudius.

Irenaeus is NOT credible or is extremely questionable.

On the other hand, Justin Martyr's writing do NOT suffer from the credibility problems of Irenaeus. Justin named no specific author for his Memoirs of the Apostles and Nothing about Acts of the Apostles and Paul.

Justin Martyr shows a 120 year BLACK HOLE from the ascension of Jesus to c 150 CE for the Jesus movement.

Irenaeus shows NO black hole but his sources have been discredited or questionable.

Now, if there was any document found and dated by Paleography or scientific means that can show the FOUR Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings were written BEFORE c 70 CE then Irenaeus would be vindicated.

There has not been found any writings dated by Paleography or scientific means to show that the FOUR Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings were composed before c 70 CE.

In fact, so far all writings DATED by Paleography or scientific means have CORROBORATED the writings of Justin Martyr.

There was NO SUCH thing as FOUR Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and Pauline writings at around c 70 CE.

Justin Martyr has been VINDICATED.

Justin Martyr is CREDIBLE based on the EXISTING dated evidence.

Irenaeus is NOT Credible.

There was NO gospels named gMatthew, gMark, gLuke, gJohn, NO Pauline writer, No Pauline letters and NO Acts of the Apostles at around c 70 CE.

The Pauline letters have been dated by Paleography to the mid 2nd-3rd century and the FOUR Gospels and Acts of the Apostles to the 4th century.

But, it does NOT end with Irenaeus.

It is NOT only Irenaeus that is NOT credible--it is EVERY author that claimed the four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings were written before c 70 CE.

There is NO dated evidence to support any claim of Paul and the Apostles before c 70 CE.

There were NO Pauline churches, and No Jerusalem church before c 70 CE.

Duvduv

What do you mean you "came across a writer who calls himself Justin"?? Is this a new person who we've never heard of before??

By the way, how do you know for sure that this gentleman lived in the mid-2nd century when just a couple of decades later another gentleman named Irenaeus just happened to hear of the gospels and Paul, etc.??

How realistic is that? How do you know that Justin and Irenaeus were not backdated from the 4th or 5th centuries, and how do you know that Justin was not some montage of writings early in the Constantinian period before the gospels and epistles were finalized as religious texts?

Good old Justin happened to know an Old Man without a name who just happened to know all about the Christ, but.....shshsh...he couldn't tell us the Old Man's name, where he was from, how he found out about the Christ, and any leads to point Justin into the direction of the so-called Memoirs of the Apostles, who good old Justin couldn't identify - no apostles could be named who had memoirs, not a single one (the so-called Apostle John was mentioned in the "Monologue" with Trypho). How interesting. Not only that, but Justin couldn't even name a single colleague, names of his communities, leaders or anything significant and identifiable about his Christian movement.

Why? Because none of them existed, and neither did the Old Man. Justin's writings included sophomoric musics of a Greek Philosophy student and some vague ideas about a messianic Christ, which even Paul didn't know about when his writings came along.

One can only wonder why the later Nicaean Church didn't rework Justin's writings to give some antiquity to outside writings other than the NT texts. Probably "Apostle John" was good enough to link Justin to their church teachings.

Duvduv

How interesting that Justin, who never mentions Paul, and who supposedly authored the Dialogue with Trypho, should mention the Baptist in the Dialogue, and Paul never knew of him in the epistles. The Baptist is Justin's Elijah figure but the Paulists never heard of him.

aa5874

From today I will use Justin Martyr's writings as CREDIBLE sources because so far NO writings dated by Paleography or scientific means have shown that there were four named Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings.

Justin Martyr has been Vindicated.

Justin Martyr is CREDIBLE.

The writer called Justin did IDENTIFY himself in "First Apology" and claimed to be writing to the Roman Emperor Antoninus, the Senate and the Roman people and he has been acknowledged by other Apologetic sources.

Justin Martyr showed NO awareness of the four named Gospels, Acts of the Apoostles and Pauline writings and lo and behold NONE of those writings have been ever dated by Paleography or scientific means to 70 CE as claimed by Irenaeus.

From today, I will NOT regard any source as Credible that claim the Four Gospels, Acts of the Pauline writings were written in the 1st century and before c 70 CE.

Justin Martyr's writings are COMPATIBLE with non-apologetic sources. The Jesus story was a Myth fable and there were NO apostles and NO Paul.

I will NO longer accept imaginary evidence from anyone.

Iskander

Now that Justin has been found credible by you what he says is of great importance to seekers of credible information. What is Justin saying?

aa5874

It is the DATED evidence by Paleography and scientific means that has corroborated the Credibility of Justin Martyr.

Justin Martyr ADMITTED the Jesus story is no different to the Myth Fables of the Greek and did NOT mention any post-ascension activities of the Apostles and Paul.

The DATED evidence supports Justin Martyr's lack of knowledge of the ACTIVITIES of the Apostles and Paul.

There was NO Jesus, No Apostles and No Paul.

Iskander

One step at the time.


Justin writes to the Emperor and in his letter he says : we demand that the charges against the Christians be investigated.

He thinks that an investigation by honest men will prove the charges to be false.

Christians existed and were being persecuted and known to the Emperor early in the second century. ---We know this because Justin is credible.

Do yo agree with what the credible justin has said so far?

aa5874

I used Lucian's "Death of Peregrine" to show that a non-apologetic source did claim that there were Christians in Palestine.

"Death of Peregrine" The claim that there were Christians in the 2nd century appears to be corroborated by Lucian.

If Jesus did NOT exist but was just a Myth then Justin Martyr's writings are COMPATIBLE with such a scenario and is supported by the DATED Codices and P 46, the Pauline writings by Paleography and/or scientific means to the mid 2nd -3rd century.

Iskander

Justin is credible; an honest credible man of your choice is all what we need.


Justin wrote to the emperor in the 2nd century and justin is credible,you asserted this and I agreed to be informed by you. What did the credible Justin say?



Justin goes on to say in the same letter to the emperor:

Chapter XIII.—Christians serve God rationally.
What sober-minded man, then, will not acknowledge that we are not atheists, worshipping as
we do the Maker of this universe, and declaring, as we have been taught, that He has no need of
streams of blood and libations and incense; whom we praise to the utmost of our power by the
exercise of prayer and thanksgiving for all things wherewith we are supplied, as we have been
taught that the only honour that is worthy of Him is not to consume by fire what He has brought
into being for our sustenance, but to use it for ourselves and those who need, and with gratitude to
Him to offer thanks by invocations and hymns1782 for our creation, and for all the means of health,
and for the various qualities of the different kinds of things, and for the changes of the seasons;
and to present before Him petitions for our existing again in incorruption through faith in Him. Our
teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under
Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judæa, in the times of Tiberius Cæsar; and that we reasonably worship
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Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second
place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. For they proclaim our madness to consist
in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the
Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to
you, we pray you to give heed

Do you agree with what the credible Justin wrote to the 2nd century emperor?

Iskander

Aa5874

I value your contribution to this forum highly; you are far more knowledgeable about these matters than I am.

I have, probably, over interpreted your OP and I would like to withdraw if you are agreeable.

I rate you higher than the tedious pomposity of many of the inhabitants of these types of forums: zoos for peacocks are what they are.