aa5874

But, there is no need for all these suppositions. THE stories of Jesus can be found in the NT, and it was the Jews that wanted Jesus dead.

The Roman authorities were not looking for Jesus or had not a single accusation against Jesus. Pilate, it would appear, had no idea who Jesus was, or even where he was from, before he was brought to him by the chief priest.

In the Gospels, Jesus even admonished his disciples NOT to tell anyone he was the CHRIST.

The apparent fabrication of the crucifixion of Jesus was just a part of the apocalyptic author's storyline to vilify and demonize the Jews so that it could be shown that it was God himself, not the Romans, that ordered destruction of Jerusalem and Temple because the Jews killed God's own Son even though he was completely exonerated.

Solo

How about David Koresh in 1993 ? Surely two dozen children were not incinerated in Waco by the federales (who lied about using pyrotechnics until 1999) because Janet Reno and Bill Clinton were concerned that David Koresh abused them sexually !

So what else was it ? That he stashed weapons ? Elizabeth Clare Prophet's CUT had an arsenal much bigger and deadlier that the Davidians and yet was accorded leeway in negotiations with the ATF for their surrender. Koresh is on record actually inviting the federal agents to discuss matters. He was also known to jog daily outside the compound. They prefered a deadly confrontation.

Jiri

DCHindley

David Koresh more than likely caused the conflagration himself. He was so anxious to bring about the coming of the kingdom of God according to his understanding of the book of Revelation, he WANTED that to happen. I think he believed he and his followers would be resurrected.

Unfortunately, the FBI didn't have a clue about the mindset of apocalyptic groups. High level ignorance about fanatical beliefs of Christianity & Islam continues to this day among the highest levels of US government, regardless of political affiliation.

Anyone who had been exposed to fervent end-time beliefs of Adventist, or Jehovah's Witnesses, or even Evangelical Fundamentalists, should have seen this coming way early in the negotiations. The FBI made the mistake of thinking that brainwashed cult members would yield to reason and a sense of self preservation.

The best they could do with that approach was appeal to a few of the half committed and some of parents who were concerned for their children, even though they themselves stayed.

DCH

storytime

I would see it being relevant as to the Jews maintaining their Judaism, aka Jewish tradition, one God, "no other gods before me".

Jesus declaring himself as one with god, in effect being God in the flesh, walking among them, is denied in OT scripts. Ref: "Is God a man that He should be inquired of?"

OT God declares himself not a man, nor does he accept a man to stand beside him as a savior, mediator, lord, redeemer or an equal.

Who was the character Jesus in the story? All acounts compared say Jesus was a liar, a false prophet, a charlatan, who turned the children of Israel from their God to himself.

Jesus wasn't needed as a saviour because the Law which was the Word, Spirit, God, gave the people of Israel their instructions at Sinai. Nothing more was needed. What's the point of the story then? It's a teaching tool, a testing mechanism. Would the Jews turn from their God and worship a man-god, an idol? Or would they remain loyal to the God of their origin - who gave them their laws and ordinances via Moses?

Jesus said: "search the scriptures for they speak of me." He lied.

Jesus at one point became desperate when people ignored his magic. He yelled "I am he" implying that he was the one that should come. Again he lied. No one man was to come and save the world from sin, as no man was needed. The Law determined sin as a transgression, an offense, and the Law gave instructions on how to deal with sinners.

If there is any truth to the Jesus character, maybe someone would like to inform me?

Toto

Catherine M. Murphy seems to be a respectable scholar. She has written on the Dead Sea Scrolls and is the author of John the Baptist: Prophet of Purity for a New Age (or via: amazon.co.uk). (To find her other books on Amazon, search for "Catherine M. Murphy" without the PhD. Only the Dummies book uses the PhD.)

spin

Shouldn't that be "Historical Dummies for Jesus"?




spin

Back Again

No no. She wanted to write a very small book instead of a very large one.

Steven Carr

I guess you are right.

This scenario of a Jesus crucified by the Romans because they thought he was rebelling against Roman authority is the only thing which can explain why Paul wrote what he did in Romans 13.

The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.

Steven Carr

Is it true that leaders of the Branch Davidians are now writing letters saying that people who are punished by the authorities brought it on themselves by being rebels, and that the authorities are agents of God to bring punishment on wrongdoers?

Solo

Well, first of all, just so no misunderstanding arises on that score, let me say that I hold no brief for David Koresh, and that I have always considered him a nutjob. That being out of the way, I believe, the Waco assault and torching of the compound is the responsibility of the US. federal government and its agencies, wholly and without much question. For the remainder of Clinton's administration, and until the summer of 1999, the US Attorney General's office denied pyrotechnic gas was used, even though a film of the tanks inserting some substance into the buildings the was in plain view. Further, army special units were present, and active during the siege.
The Danforth report in 2000 acknowledged both the presence of US army and the use of three rounds of flammable gas. The report exonerated the US government of wrongdoing.

Whether or not Koresh actually planned or started fires in the compound himself (and I think it is doubtful) the government agencies made a series of incomprehensible blunders before and during the siege that caused needless loss of life.

1) Koresh was not cooped up in the compound and could have been easily apprehended at almost any time on the ATF warrant. Both the agency and the local sheriff had very good intelligence on the Branch Davidian compound.

2) During the siege of the compound btw Feb 28-Apr 19 the FBI deployed incredibly stupid tactics in trying to destabilize David Koresh mentally, in full knowledge of his bi-polar condition. They played loud music to deprive the residents of sleep, knowing full well that this could - given the level of stress - produce a psychotic reaction a la Jim Jones. There were 75 people in the compound, and 25 children under the age of 15.

3) David Korresh was very much aware of the "hostage collateral" during negotiations. On the tapes he sounds lucid most of the time although clearly not in possession of his all his means. His liutenant Steve Schneider was an attorney with a lot of infuence. He seemed to have been a steadying influence and thinking clearly. He wanted to get James Tabor (yes, that James Tabor) involved as a negotiator. Neither of the two men sound on the tapes like they were staging an "apocalypse now".

4) during the armored assault the government was using battering vehicles without regard to life. Several women and children were said to have died in the collapse of the structures.

5) Flammable gas was used despite angry and repeated denials by Janet Reno. The alleged conversations of the BDs in setting up the flammable materials occured in the morning 7:30. There was an attempt by the BDs to restore telephone communication with FBI ninety minutes later. The agency responded with a second round of gassing. Third round was being inserted starting around 11:30 am, and continuing at 11:45. Shortly after 12 pm, and a collapse of the wall the first signs of fire appear

At any rate, here is an excerpt from an interview with a Waco survivor. I agree with it completely:


Well, if you read more about this I am sure you will find that they had a pretty good idea about what they had on their hands.

Jiri