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Old 06-08-2008, 11:57 AM   #1
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Default Josephus writes about "petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders"?

This questions is in relation to the Jesus myth/ahistoricity. (I hope this is in the right place.)

This quote is quite common:

"Its brevity disproves its authenticity. Josephus' work is voluminous and exhaustive. It comprises twenty books. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders. Nearly fourty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed with a dozen lines."
-- The Christ, by John E. Remsburg, pages 171-3.


I'm interested in where in his work does Josephus dedicate pages to "petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders". I've looked at his work and notice he does write about robbers, but I don't know if this is the correct reference to the above.

As for my position on Jesus.... on the basis of the argument from silence, I hold that Jesus the Christ, as per the gospel stories (i.e. the miracle-working crowd-drawing god-man), is not a historical person. Obviously the AfS does not disprove a normal human who was the basis for the story.

One of the common 'arguments' for why the 1st century writers were silent is that Jesus was not a noteworthy person. Two problems with that: 1. you cannot hold that the gospels are point to history AND hold that that Jesus was insignificant person! 2. It would seem that writers of the time were not just interested is noteworthy events/people, if the above quote from Remsburg is true, hence my question.

Thanks.
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Old 06-08-2008, 12:31 PM   #2
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1. This topic belongs in BCH with all the other threads on the historical Jesus. (I will move it.)

2. The word "robbers" probably refers insurrectionists rather than petty criminals.
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Old 06-08-2008, 02:03 PM   #3
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Quote:
Antiquities of the Jews - Book XX
CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF TWENTY-TWO YEARS.
FROM FADUS THE PROCURATOR TO FLORUS.
CHAPTER 1.
A SEDITION OF THE PHILADELPHIANS AGAINST THE JEWS; AND ALSO CONCERNING THE
VESTMENTS OF THE HIGH PRIEST.
1. UPON the death of king Agrippa, which we have related in the foregoing book,
Claudius Caesar sent Cassius Longinus as successor to Marcus, out of regard to
the memory of king Agrippa, who had often desired of him by letters, while be
was alive, that he would not suffer Marcus to be any longer president of Syria.
But Fadus, as soon as he was come procurator into Judea, found quarrelsome
doings between the Jews that dwelt in Perea, and the people of Philadelphia,
about their borders, at a village called Mia, that was filled with men of a
warlike temper; for the Jews of Perea had taken up arms without the consent of
their principal men, and had destroyed many of the Philadelphians. When Fadus
was informed of this procedure, it provoked him very much that they had not left
the determination of the matter to him, if they thought that the Philadelphians
had done them any wrong, but had rashly taken up arms against them. So he seized
upon three of their principal men, who were also the causes of this sedition,
and ordered them to be bound, and afterwards had one of them slain, whose name
was Hannibal; and he banished the other two, Areram and Eleazar. Tholomy also,
the arch robber, was, after some time, brought to him bound, and slain, but not
till he had done a world of mischief to Idumea and the Arabians. And indeed,
from that time, Judea was cleared of robberies by the care and providence of
Fadus. He also at this time sent for the high priests and the principal citizens
of Jerusalem, and this at the command of the emperor, and admonished them that
they should lay up the long garment and the sacred vestment, which it is
customary for nobody but the high priest to wear, in the tower of Antonia, that
it might be under the power of the Romans, as it had been formerly. Now the Jews
durst not contradict what he had said, but desired Fadus, however, and Longinus,
(which last was come to Jerusalem, and had brought a great army with him, out of
a fear that the [rigid] injunctions of Fadus should force the Jews to rebel,)
that they might, in the first place, have leave to send ambassadors to Caesar,
to petition him that they may have the holy vestments under their own power; and
that, in the next place, they would tarry till they knew what answer Claudius
would give to that their request. So they replied, that they would give them
leave to send their ambassadors, provided they would give them their sons as
pledges [for their peaceable behavior]. And when they had agreed so to do, and
had given them the pledges they desired, the ambassadors were sent accordingly.
But when, upon their coming to Rome, Agrippa, junior, the son of the deceased,
understood the reason why they came, (for he dwelt with Claudius Caesar, as we
said before,) he besought Caesar to grant the Jews their request about the holy
vestments, and to send a message to Fadus accordingly.
2. Hereupon Claudius called for the ambassadors; and told them that he granted
their request; and bade them to return their thanks to Agrippa for this favor,
which had been bestowed on them upon his entreaty. And besides these answers of
his, he sent the following letter by them: "Claudius Caesar Germanicus, tribune
of the people the fifth time, and designed consul the fourth time, and imperator
the tenth time, the father of his country, to the magistrates, senate, and
people, and the whole nation of the Jews, sendeth greeting. Upon the
presentation of your ambassadors to me by Agrippa, my friend, whom I have
brought up, and have now with me, and who is a person of very great piety, who
are come to give me thanks for the care I have taken of your nation, and to
entreat me, in an earnest and obliging manner, that they may have the holy
vestments, with the crown belonging to them, under their power, - I grant their
request, as that excellent person Vitellius, who is very dear to me, had done
before me. And I have complied with your desire, in the first place, out of
regard to that piety which I profess, and because I would have every one worship
God according to the laws of their own country; and this I do also because I
shall hereby highly gratify king Herod, and Agrippa, junior, whose sacred
regards to me, and earnest good-will to you, I am well acquainted with, and with
whom I have the greatest friendship, and whom I highly esteem, and look on as
persons of the best character. Now I have written about these affairs to Cuspius
Fadus, my procurator. The names of those that brought me your letter are
Cornelius, the son of Cero, Trypho, the son of Theudio, Dorotheus, the son of
Nathaniel, and John, the son of Jotre. This letter is dated before the fourth of
the calends of July, when Ruffis and Pompeius Sylvanus are consuls."
3. Herod also, the brother of the deceased Agrippa, who was then possessed of
the royal authority over Chalcis, petitioned Claudius Caesar for the authority
over the temple, and the money of the sacred treasure, and the choice of the
high priests, and obtained all that he petitioned for. So that after that time
this authority continued among all his descendants till the end of the war (1)
Accordingly, Herod removed the last high priest, called Cimtheras, and bestowed
that dignity on his successor Joseph, the son of Cantos.

CHAPTER 5.
CONCERNING THEUDAS AND THE SONS OF JUDAS THE GALILEAN; AS ALSO WHAT CALAMITY
FELL UPON THE JEWS ON THE DAY OF THE PASSOVER.
1. NOW it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain
magician, whose name was Theudas, (9) persuaded a great part of the people to
take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told
them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river,
and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words.
However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt,
but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them
unexpectedly, slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took
Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. This was what
befell the Jews in the time of Cuspius Fadus's government.
2. Then came Tiberius Alexander as successor to Fadus; he was the son of
Alexander the alabarch of Alexandria, which Alexander was a principal person
among all his contemporaries, both for his family and wealth: he was also more
eminent for his piety than this his son Alexander, for he did not continue in
the religion of his country. Under these procurators that great famine happened
in Judea, in which queen Helena bought corn in Egypt at a great expense, and
distributed it to those that were in want, as I have related already. And
besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas
who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the
estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those
sons were James and Simon, whom Alexander commanded to be crucified. But now
Herod, king of Chalcis, removed Joseph, the son of Camydus, from the high
priesthood, and made Ananias, the son of Nebedeu, his successor. And now it was
that Cumanus came as successor to Tiberius Alexander; as also that Herod,
brother of Agrippa the great king, departed this life, in the eighth year of the
reign of Claudius Caesar. He left behind him three sons; Aristobulus, whom he
had by his first wife, with Bernicianus, and Hyrcanus, both whom he had by
Bernice his brother's daughter. But Claudius Caesar bestowed his dominions on
Agrippa, junior.
3. Now while the Jewish affairs were under the administration of Cureanus, there
happened a great tumult at the city of Jerusalem, and many of the Jews perished
therein. But I shall first explain the occasion whence it was derived. When that
feast which is called the passover was at hand, at which time our custom is to
use unleavened bread, and a great multitude was gathered together from all parts
to that feast, Cumanus was afraid lest some attempt of innovation should then be
made by them; so he ordered that one regiment of the army should take their
arms, and stand in the temple cloisters, to repress any attempts of innovation,
if perchance any such should begin; and this was no more than what the former
procurators of Judea did at such festivals. But on the fourth day of the feast,
a certain soldier let down his breeches, and exposed his privy members to the
multitude, which put those that saw him into a furious rage, and made them cry
out that this impious action was not done to approach them, but God himself;
nay, some of them reproached Cumanus, and pretended that the soldier was set on
by him, which, when Cumanus heard, he was also himself not a little provoked at
such reproaches laid upon him; yet did he exhort them to leave off such
seditious attempts, and not to raise a tumult at the festival. But when he could
not induce them to be quiet for they still went on in their reproaches to him,
he gave order that the whole army should take their entire armor, and come to
Antonia, which was a fortress, as we have said already, which overlooked the
temple; but when the multitude saw the soldiers there, they were affrighted at
them, and ran away hastily; but as the passages out were but narrow, and as they
thought their enemies followed them, they were crowded together in their flight,
and a great number were pressed to death in those narrow passages; nor indeed
was the number fewer than twenty thousand that perished in this tumult. So
instead of a festival, they had at last a mournful day of it; and they all of
them forgot their prayers and sacrifices, and betook themselves to lamentation
and weeping; so great an affliction did the impudent obsceneness of a single
soldier bring upon them. (10)
4. Now before this their first mourning was over, another mischief befell them
also; for some of those that raised the foregoing tumult, when they were
traveling along the public road, about a hundred furlongs from the city, robbed
Stephanus, a servant of Caesar, as he was journeying, and plundered him of all
that he had with him; which things when Cureanus heard of, he sent soldiers
immediately, and ordered them to plunder the neighboring villages, and to bring
the most eminent persons among them in bonds to him. Now as this devastation was
making, one of the soldiers seized the laws of Moses that lay in one of those
villages, and brought them out before the eyes of all present, and tore them to
pieces; and this was done with reproachful language, and much scurrility; which
things when the Jews heard of, they ran together, and that in great numbers, and
came down to Cesarea, where Cumanus then was, and besought him that he would
avenge, not themselves, but God himself, whose laws had been affronted; for that
they could not bear to live any longer, if the laws of their forefathers must be
affronted after this manner. Accordingly Cumanus, out of fear lest the multitude
should go into a sedition, and by the advice of his friends also, took care that
the soldier who had offered the affront to the laws should be beheaded, and
thereby put a stop to the sedition which was ready to be kindled a second time.

CHAPTER 8.
AFTER WHAT MANNER UPON THE DEATH OF CLAUDIUS, NERO SUCCEEDED IN THE GOVERNMENT;
AS ALSO WHAT BARBAROUS THINGS HE DID. CONCERNING THE ROBBERS, MURDERERS AND
IMPOSTORS, THAT AROSE WHILE FELIX AND FESTUS WERE PROCURATORS OF JUDEA.
1. NOW Claudius Caesar died when he had reigned thirteen years, eight months,
and twenty days; (17) and a report went about that he was poisoned by his wife
Agrippina. Her father was Germanicus, the brother of Caesar. Her husband was
Domitius Aenobarbus, one of the most illustrious persons that was in the city of
Rome; after whose death, and her long continuance in widowhood, Claudius took
her to wife. She brought along with her a son, Domtitus, of the same name with
his father. He had before this slain his wife Messalina, out of jealousy, by
whom he had his children Britannicus and Octavia; their eldest sister was
Antonia, whom he had by Pelina his first wife. He also married Octavia to Nero;
for that was the name that Caesar gave him afterward, upon his adopting him for
his son.
2. But now Agrippina was afraid, lest, when Britannicus should come to man's
estate, he should succeed his father in the government, and desired to seize
upon the principality beforehand for her own son [Nero]; upon which the report
went that she thence compassed the death of Claudius. Accordingly, she sent
Burrhus, the general of the army, immediately, and with him the tribunes, and
such also of the freed-men as were of the greatest authority, to bring Nero away
into the camp, and to salute him emperor. And when Nero had thus obtained the
government, he got Britannicus to be so poisoned, that the multitude should not
perceive it; although he publicly put his own mother to death not long
afterward, making her this requital, not only for being born of her, but for
bringing it so about by her contrivances that he obtained the Roman empire. He
also slew Octavia his own wife, and many other illustrious persons, under this
pretense, that they plotted against him.
3. But I omit any further discourse about these affairs; for there have been a
great many who have composed the history of Nero; some of which have departed
from the truth of facts out of favor, as having received benefits from him;
while others, out of hatred to him, and the great ill-will which they bare him,
have so impudently raved against him with their lies, that they justly deserve
to be condemned. Nor do I wonder at such as have told lies of Nero, since they
have not in their writings preserved the truth of history as to those facts that
were earlier than his time, even when the actors could have no way incurred
their hatred, since those writers lived a long time after them. But as to those
that have no regard to truth, they may write as they please; for in that they
take delight: but as to ourselves, who have made truth our direct aim, we shall
briefly touch upon what only belongs remotely to this undertaking, but shall
relate what hath happened to us Jews with great accuracy, and shall not grudge
our pains in giving an account both of the calamities we have suffered, and of
the crimes we have been guilty of. I will now therefore return to the relation
of our own affairs.
4. For in the first year of the reign of Nero, upon the death of Azizus, king of
Emesa, Soemus, his brother, succeeded in his kingdom, and Aristobulus, the son
of Herod, king of Chalcis, was intrusted by Nero with the government of the
Lesser Armenia. Caesar also bestowed on Agrippa a certain part of Galilee,
Tiberias, and Tarichae, (18) and ordered them to submit to his jurisdiction. He
gave him also Julias, a city of Perea, with fourteen villages that lay about it.

5. Now as for the affairs of the Jews, they grew worse and worse continually,
for the country was again filled with robbers and impostors, who deluded the
multitude. Yet did Felix catch and put to death many of those impostors every
day, together with the robbers. He also caught Eleazar, the son of Dineas, who
had gotten together a company of robbers; and this he did by treachery; for he
gave him assurance that he should suffer no harm, and thereby persuaded him to
come to him; but when he came, he bound him, and sent him to Rome. Felix also
bore an ill-will to Jonathan, the high priest, because he frequently gave him
admonitions about governing the Jewish affairs better than he did, lest he
should himself have complaints made of him by the multitude, since he it was who
had desired Caesar to send him as procurator of Judea. So Felix contrived a
method whereby he might get rid of him, now he was become so continually
troublesome to him; for such continual admonitions are grievous to those who are
disposed to act unjustly. Wherefore Felix persuaded one of Jonathan's most
faithful friends, a citizen of Jerusalem, whose name was Doras, to bring the
robbers upon Jonathan, in order to kill him; and this he did by promising to
give him a great deal of money for so doing. Doras complied with the proposal,
and contrived matters so, that the robbers might murder him after the following
manner: Certain of those robbers went up to the city, as if they were going to
worship God, while they had daggers under their garments, and by thus mingling
themselves among the multitude they slew Jonathan (19) and as this murder was
never avenged, the robbers went up with the greatest security at the festivals
after this time; and having weapons concealed in like manner as before, and
mingling themselves among the multitude, they slew certain of their own enemies,
and were subservient to other men for money; and slew others, not only in remote
parts of the city, but in the temple itself also; for they had the boldness to
murder men there, without thinking of the impiety of which they were guilty. And
this seems to me to have been the reason why God, out of his hatred of these
men's wickedness, rejected our city; and as for the temple, he no longer
esteemed it sufficiently pure for him to inhabit therein, but brought the Romans
upon us, and threw a fire upon the city to purge it; and brought upon us, our
wives, and children, slavery, as desirous to make us wiser by our calamities.
6. These works, that were done by the robbers, filled the city with all sorts of
impiety. And now these impostors and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow
them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders
and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were
prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly; for Felix brought
them back, and then punished them. Moreover, there came out of Egypt (20) about
this time to Jerusalem one that said he was a prophet, and advised the multitude
of the common people to go along with him to the Mount of Olives, as it was
called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of five furlongs.
He said further, that he would show them from hence how, at his command, the
walls of Jerusalem would fall down; and he promised them that he would procure
them an entrance into the city through those walls, when they were fallen down.
Now when Felix was informed of these things, he ordered his soldiers to take
their weapons, and came against them with a great number of horsemen and footmen
from Jerusalem, and attacked the Egyptian and the people that were with him. He
also slew four hundred of them, and took two hundred alive. But the Egyptian
himself escaped out of the fight, but did not appear any more. And again the
robbers stirred up the people to make war with the Romans, and said they ought
not to obey them at all; and when any persons would not comply with them, they
set fire to their villages, and plundered them.
7. And now it was that a great sedition arose between the Jews that inhabited
Cesarea, and the Syrians who dwelt there also, concerning their equal right to
the privileges belonging to citizens; for the Jews claimed the pre-eminence,
because Herod their king was the builder of Cesarea, and because he was by birth
a Jew. Now the Syrians did not deny what was alleged about Herod; but they said
that Cesarea was formerly called Strato's Tower, and that then there was not one
Jewish inhabitant. When the presidents of that country heard of these disorders,
they caught the authors of them on both sides, and tormented them with stripes,
and by that means put a stop to the disturbance for a time. But the Jewish
citizens depending on their wealth, and on that account despising the Syrians,
reproached them again, and hoped to provoke them by such reproaches. However,
the Syrians, though they were inferior in wealth, yet valuing themselves highly
on this account, that the greatest part of the Roman soldiers that were there
were either of Cesarea or Sebaste, they also for some time used reproachful
language to the Jews also; and thus it was, till at length they came to throwing
stones at one another, and several were wounded, and fell on both sides, though
still the Jews were the conquerors. But when Felix saw that this quarrel was
become a kind of war, he came upon them on the sudden, and desired the Jews to
desist; and when they refused so to do, he armed his soldiers, and sent them out
upon them, and slew many of them, and took more of them alive, and permitted his
soldiers to plunder some of the houses of the citizens, which were full of
riches. Now those Jews that were more moderate, and of principal dignity among
them, were afraid of themselves, and desired of Felix that he would sound a
retreat to his soldiers, and spare them for the future, and afford them room for
repentance for what they had done; and Felix was prevailed upon to do so.
8. About this time king Agrippa gave the high priesthood to Ismael, who was the
son of Fabi. And now arose a sedition between the high priests and the principal
men of the multitude of Jerusalem; each of which got them a company of the
boldest sort of men, and of those that loved innovations about them, and became
leaders to them; and when they struggled together, they did it by casting
reproachful words against one another, and by throwing stones also. And there
was nobody to reprove them; but these disorders were done after a licentious
manner in the city, as if it had no government over it. And such was the
impudence (21) and boldness that had seized on the high priests, that they had
the hardiness to send their servants into the threshing-floors, to take away
those tithes that were due to the priests, insomuch that it so fell out that the
poorest sort of the priests died for want. To this degree did the violence of
the seditious prevail over all right and justice.
9. Now when Porcius Festus was sent as successor to Felix by Nero, the principal
of the Jewish inhabitants of Cesarea went up to Rome to accuse Felix; and he had
certainly been brought to punishment, unless Nero had yielded to the importunate
solicitations of his brother Pallas, who was at that time had in the greatest
honor by him. Two of the principal Syrians in Cesarea persuaded Burrhus, who was
Nero's tutor, and secretary for his Greek epistles, by giving him a great sum of
money, to disannul that equality of the Jewish privileges of citizens which they
hitherto enjoyed. So Burrhus, by his solicitations, obtained leave of the
emperor that an epistle should be written to that purpose. This epistle became
the occasion of the following miseries that befell our nation; for when the Jews
of Cesarea were informed of the contents of this epistle to the Syrians, they
were more disorderly than before, till a war was kindled.
10. Upon Festus's coming into Judea, it happened that Judea was afflicted by the
robbers, while all the villages were set on fire, and plundered by them. And
then it was that the sicarii, as they were called, who were robbers, grew
numerous. They made use of small swords, not much different in length from the
Persian acinacae, but somewhat crooked, and like the Roman sicae, [or sickles,]
as they were called; and from these weapons these robbers got their
denomination; and with these weapons they slew a great many; for they mingled
themselves among the multitude at their festivals, when they were come up in
crowds from all parts to the city to worship God, as we said before, and easily
slew those that they had a mind to slay. They also came frequently upon the
villages belonging to their enemies, with their weapons, and plundered them, and
set them on fire. So Festus sent forces, both horsemen and footmen, to fall upon
those that had been seduced by a certain impostor, who promised them deliverance
and freedom from the miseries they were under, if they would but follow him as
far as the wilderness. Accordingly, those forces that were sent destroyed both
him that had deluded them, and those that were his followers also.
11. About the same time king Agrippa built himself a very large dining-room in
the royal palace at Jerusalem, near to the portico. Now this palace had been
erected of old by the children of Asamoneus. and was situate upon an elevation,
and afforded a most delightful prospect to those that had a mind to take a view
of the city, which prospect was desired by the king; and there he could lie
down, and eat, and thence observe what was done in the temple; which thing, when
the chief men of Jerusalem saw they were very much displeased at it; for it was
not agreeable to the institutions of our country or law that what was done in
the temple should be viewed by others, especially what belonged to the
sacrifices. They therefore erected a wall upon the uppermost building which
belonged to the inner court of the temple towards the west, which wall when it
was built, did not only intercept the prospect of the dining-room in the palace,
but also of the western cloisters that belonged to the outer court of the temple
also, where it was that the Romans kept guards for the temple at the festivals.
At these doings both king Agrippa, and principally Festus the procurator, were
much displeased; and Festus ordered them to pull the wall down again: but the
Jews petitioned him to give them leave to send an embassage about this matter to
Nero; for they said they could not endure to live if any part of the temple
should be demolished; and when Festus had given them leave so to do, they sent
ten of their principal men to Nero, as also Ismael the high priest, and Helcias,
the keeper of the sacred treasure. And when Nero had heard what they had to say,
he not only forgave (22) them what they had already done, but also gave them
leave to let the wall they had built stand. This was granted them in order to
gratify Poppea, Nero's wife, who was a religious woman, and had requested these
favors of Nero, and who gave order to the ten ambassadors to go their way home;
but retained Helcias and Ismael as hostages with herself. As soon as the king
heard this news, he gave the high priesthood to Joseph, who was called Cabi, the
son of Simon, formerly high priest.
CHAPTER 11.
CONCERNING FLORUS THE PROCURATOR, WHO NECESSITATED THE JEWS TO TAKE UP ARMS
AGAINST THE ROMANS. THE CONCLUSION.
1. NOW Gessius Florus, who was sent as successor to Albinus by Nero, filled
Judea with abundance of miseries. He was by birth of the city of Clazomene, and
brought along with him his wife Cleopatra, (by whose friendship with Poppea,
Nero's wife, he obtained this government,) who was no way different from him in
wickedness. This Florus was so wicked, and so violent in the use of his
authority, that the Jews took Albinus to have been [comparatively] their
benefactor; so excessive were the mischiefs that he brought upon them. For
Albinus concealed his wickedness, and was careful that it might not be
discovered to all men; but Gessius Florus, as though he bad been sent on purpose
to show his crimes to every body, made a pompous ostentation of them to our
nation, as never omitting any sort of violence, nor any unjust sort of
punishment; for he was not to be moved by pity, and never was satisfied with any
degree of gain that came in his way; nor had he any more regard to great than to
small acquisitions, but became a partner with the robbers themselves. For a
great many fell then into that practice without fear, as having him for their
security, and depending on him, that he would save them harmless in their
particular robberies; so that there were no bounds set to the nation's miseries;
but the unhappy Jews, when they were not able to bear the devastations which the
robbers made among them, were all under a necessity of leaving their own
habitations, and of flying away, as hoping to dwell more easily any where else
in the world among foreigners [than in their own country]. And what need I say
any more upon this head? since it was this Florus who necessitated us to take up
arms against the Romans, while we thought it better to be destroyed at once,
than by little and little. Now this war began in the second year of the
government of Florus, and the twelfth year of the reign of Nero. But then what
actions we were forced to do, or what miseries we were enabled to suffer, may be
accurately known by such as will peruse those books which I have written about
the Jewish war.
2. I shall now, therefore, make an end here of my Antiquities; after the
conclusion of which events, I began to write that account of the war; and these
Antiquities contain what hath been delivered down to us from the original
creation of man, until the twelfth year of the reign of Nero, as to what hath
befallen the Jews, as well in Egypt as in Syria and in Palestine, and what we
have suffered from the Assyrians and Babylonians, and what afflictions the
Persians and Macedonians, and after them the Romans, have brought upon us; for I
think I may say that I have composed this history with sufficient accuracy in
all things. I have attempted to enumerate those high priests that we have had
during the interval of two thousand years; I have also carried down the
succession of our kings, and related their actions, and political
administration, without [considerable] errors, as also the power of our
monarchs; and all according to what is written in our sacred books; for this it
was that I promised to do in the beginning of this history. And I am so bold as
to say, now I have so completely perfected the work I proposed to myself to do,
that no other person, whether he were a Jew or foreigner, had he ever so great
an inclination to it, could so accurately deliver these accounts to the Greeks
as is done in these books. For those of my own nation freely acknowledge that I
far exceed them in the learning belonging to Jews; I have also taken a great
deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements
of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our
own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our
nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so
adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look
upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men,
but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the
testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able
to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have
done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet
hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were
immediately well rewarded for their pains.
3. And now it will not be perhaps an invidious thing, if I treat briefly of my
own family, and of the actions of my own life (28) while there are still living
such as can either prove what I say to be false, or can attest that it is true;
with which accounts I shall put an end to these Antiquities, which are contained
in twenty books, and sixty thousand verses. And if God permit me, I will briefly
run over this war (29), and to add what befell them further to that very day,
the 13th of Domitian, or A.D. 03, is not, that I have observed, taken distinct
notice of by any one; nor do we ever again, with what befell us therein to this
very day, which is the thirteenth year of the reign of Caesar Domitian, and the
fifty-sixth year of my own life. I have also an intention to write three books
concerning our Jewish opinions about God and his essence, and about our laws;
why, according to them, some things are permitted us to do, and others are
prohibited.
Josephus writes about petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders
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Old 06-08-2008, 03:24 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by jules? View Post

Josephus writes about petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders

And Josephus also wrote about a robber called Jesus

The Life of Flavius Josephus 12
Quote:
.....So Jesus the son of Sapphias, whom we have already mentioned as the leader of a seditious tumult of mariners and poor people, prevented us, and took with him certain Galileans and set the entire place on fire, and thought he should get a great deal of money thereby because he saw the roofs gilt with gold....
Life of Flavius Josephus 22
Quote:
.....Accordingly, they sent to Jesus, the captain of those robbers who were in the confines of Ptolemais and promised to give him a great deal of money.....
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Old 06-08-2008, 03:47 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jules? View Post

Josephus writes about petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders

And Josephus also wrote about a robber called Jesus

The Life of Flavius Josephus 12

Life of Flavius Josephus 22
Quote:
.....Accordingly, they sent to Jesus, the captain of those robbers who were in the confines of Ptolemais and promised to give him a great deal of money.....
I am surprised this .....Jesus the son of Sapphias, whom we have already mentioned as the leader of a seditious tumult of mariners and poor people, prevented us, and took with him certain Galileans and set the entire place on fire, and thought he should get a great deal of money thereby because he saw the roofs gilt with gold.... does not get more press especially with his band of mariners [fishermen] and the poor. according to Jo when is this dated to?
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Old 06-08-2008, 05:29 PM   #6
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Since we're posting jesus passages, consider this one. Note the demeanor and actions of Procurator Albinus.

Quote:
An incident more alarming still had occurred four years before the war at a time of exceptional peace and prosperity for the City. One Jeshua son of Ananias, a very ordinary yokel, came to the feast at which every Jew is expected to set up a tabernacle for God. As he stood in the Temple he suddenly began to shout: 'A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the Sanctuary, a voice against the bridegrooms and brides, a voice against the whole people.' Day and night he uttered this cry as he went through all the streets. Some of the more prominent citizens, very annoyed at these ominous words, laid hold of the fellow and beat him savagely. Without saying a word in his own defence or for the private information of his persecutors, he persisted in shouting the same warning as before. The Jewish authorities, rightly concluding that some supernatural force was responsible for the man's behaviour, took him before the Roman procurator. There, though scourged till his flesh hung in ribbons, he neither begged for mercy nor shed a tear, but lowering his voice to the most mournful of tones answered every blow with 'Woe to Jerusalem!' When Albinus -- for that was the procurator's name -- demanded to know who he was, where he came from and why he uttered such cries, he made no reply whatever to the questions but endlessly repeated his lament over the City, till Albinus decided he was a madman and released him. All the time till the war broke out he never approached another citizen or was seen in conversation, but daily as if he had learnt a prayer by heart he recited his lament: 'Woe to Jerusalem!' Those who daily cursed him he never cursed; those who gave him food he never thanked: his only response to anyone was that dismal foreboding. His voice was heard most of all at the feasts. For seven years and five months he went on ceaselessly, his voice as strong as ever and his vigour unabated, till during the siege after seeing the fulfilment of his foreboding he was silenced. He was going round on the wall uttering his piercing cry: 'Woe again to the City, the people, and the Sanctuary!' and as he added a last word: 'Woe to me also!' a stone shot from an engine struck him, killing him instantly. Thus he uttered those same forebodings to the very end.
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Old 06-08-2008, 11:50 PM   #7
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Thanks for the citation jules? and aa5874.

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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
Since we're posting jesus passages, consider this one. Note the demeanor and actions of Procurator Albinus.

Quote:
An incident more alarming still had occurred four years before the war at a time of exceptional peace and prosperity for the City. One Jeshua son of Ananias, a very ordinary yokel, came to the feast at which every Jew is expected to set up a tabernacle for God. As he stood in the Temple he suddenly began to shout: 'A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the Sanctuary, a voice against the bridegrooms and brides, a voice against the whole people.' Day and night he uttered this cry as he went through all the streets. Some of the more prominent citizens, very annoyed at these ominous words, laid hold of the fellow and beat him savagely. Without saying a word in his own defence or for the private information of his persecutors, he persisted in shouting the same warning as before. The Jewish authorities, rightly concluding that some supernatural force was responsible for the man's behaviour, took him before the Roman procurator. There, though scourged till his flesh hung in ribbons, he neither begged for mercy nor shed a tear, but lowering his voice to the most mournful of tones answered every blow with 'Woe to Jerusalem!' When Albinus -- for that was the procurator's name -- demanded to know who he was, where he came from and why he uttered such cries, he made no reply whatever to the questions but endlessly repeated his lament over the City, till Albinus decided he was a madman and released him. All the time till the war broke out he never approached another citizen or was seen in conversation, but daily as if he had learnt a prayer by heart he recited his lament: 'Woe to Jerusalem!' Those who daily cursed him he never cursed; those who gave him food he never thanked: his only response to anyone was that dismal foreboding. His voice was heard most of all at the feasts. For seven years and five months he went on ceaselessly, his voice as strong as ever and his vigour unabated, till during the siege after seeing the fulfilment of his foreboding he was silenced. He was going round on the wall uttering his piercing cry: 'Woe again to the City, the people, and the Sanctuary!' and as he added a last word: 'Woe to me also!' a stone shot from an engine struck him, killing him instantly. Thus he uttered those same forebodings to the very end.
Here's an comparison between Mark's Jesus and Jesus from Jewish Wars.

http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm
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Old 06-09-2008, 08:48 AM   #8
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I've always thought that Jesus ben Ananias is a perfect candidate for an HJ. So why do HJers not tote him as such? Because he is not unfalsifiable :devil1:?

BTW, does anyone understand Remsburg's argument? Because Josephus (also) writes about robbers, and does so voluminously, it follows that anyone about whom he hardly writes must be much more important than said robbers? Is this apologists' logic or something?

Gerard Stafleu
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:12 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by gstafleu View Post
I've always thought that Jesus ben Ananias is a perfect candidate for an HJ. So why do HJers not tote him as such? Because he is not unfalsifiable :devil1:?

BTW, does anyone understand Remsburg's argument? Because Josephus (also) writes about robbers, and does so voluminously, it follows that anyone about whom he hardly writes must be much more important than said robbers? Is this apologists' logic or something?

Gerard Stafleu
I think you have mis-understood the passage from Remsburg.

Remsburg is claiming that the passage about Jesus the Christ in Josephus writings are likely NOT authentic, since more was written about persons.

And this appears to be true, Josephus wrote more about JESUS, son of Sapphias, the leader of a band of robbers, mariners and poor people than Jesus the Christ.
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:21 AM   #10
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Has anyone looked at the possibility Josephus may have had a direct role in the creation of Xianity?

The Romans had been at war in this area for a huge length of time and had committed major resources to pacifying the area.

Emperors went there personally.

A Jewish bloke gets himself into the elite of Rome.

Any reasonable war strategy is always on several fronts - direct military force and hearts and minds.

Might the Romans have been experimenting with ways to pacify the Jews by tweaking their religion? Does not Mark fit that agenda?

Parallels between Luke and Josephus have been noted. Might Luke be a work of a Josephus inspired Roman team?
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