Huon

Among the Twelve Apostles, Bartholomew, Matthew the publican, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon Zelotes, and Thaddeus are simply mentioned, and their activities are not described.

mountainman

Among extant texts and remarkable by its C14 citation is the NHC 6.1 text entitled by the name of "The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles". In this text (have you read it?) the activities of the apostles are narrated. What do you, Huon, make of this - the narration of the activities of the apostles?

Best wishes,


Pete

aa5874

So, in general, it is reasonable to consider that Peter, James and Paul were probably not real persons.

There are no external non-apolgetic sources for Paul, and the so-called Paul's writings cannot be used to corroborate the writer when it has been deduced more than one person used the name Paul.

And if Jesus is considered to have not existed, then the James in Galations or the James in Josephus' Antiquities cannot be accounted for.

And all events witnessed by Peter with respect to Jesus would be fiction.

gnosis92

I understand the sources you prefer to are re: John the Baptist and Caiphus are Josephus and possibly Philo? Is there a good reason for either of these authors to refer to Jesus or other NT characters?

Huon

I suppose that you would not mention these Acts (which you call TAOPATTA) if they did not contain any historical elements. Can you mention some of these (possibly) historical elements taken out of TAOPATTA ?

What I wanted to say is this : the number 12 (a dozen) has a symbolic value. [The number 7 has also a symbolic value, similarly.] So, I wanted simply to say that many of the "12" apostles are present, only to fill in a list of 12 names. Moreover, these names are very common names among the Jews of that time.

Thaddeus is mentioned in Matt and Mk, but not in Luke and Acts. Jude [the brother ? not sure ] of James is mentioned in Luke and Acts, but not in Matt and Mk.

gJohn mentions Simon-Peter, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, and once (John 21:2) the sons of Zebedee. John 6:67-71 and John 20:24 mention the Twelve globally. That's all for gJohn.

The Twelve are a very shadowy group.

Toto

I'm not sure what this means.

Josephus lived and fought in Galilee. If Jesus had actually been active in Galilee, it would have been before Josephus was born, but there should have been some stories, some gossip that the village elders repeated.

Philo was in Egypt, and wrote more about philosophy than history, but he did write about one incident in Egypt (where a few of the themes bear a strange resemblance to the gospel stories.)

Both Philo and Josephus do mention some NT figures - Pilate and Herod. Josephus also mentions a few other NT figures - probably because the NT writers used him as a source.

avi

1. How do we know that Josephus did not use NT authors as a source? (or, for example, that both NT authors and Josephus employed a common source, no longer extant...?)
2. If Josephus' writings were edited by later, Christian authors, how can we discern this editorial interference?
3. Is there a link to a web site with the oldest original text of Josephus? Are there many copies, or only a handful, as with NT--codices Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, Alexandrinus?

reniaa

These threads always have me amazed, how much proof do people need? the further back in time we go the less information we have on individual people, Pontious pilate has unequivical archaelogicaal evidence for him that no historian would question, the pontious pilate stone dug up with his name enscribed on it is as good as historical proof as it gets.

I'm assuming the thread starter just hasn't done his researching.

On reading this thread it's easy to see that most responders are of the position of proven guilty of non existence before looking at the evidence which naturally biased them to the evidence.

The fact is the majority of qualified historians accept the existence of most of these figures and even jesus because the "Evidence" for them and jesus is quite equal to any that you can have on any historical figure. for example socrates only is known by what others have written on him but this is not enough for skeptics! why?

From the basic principle extraodinary claims need extraodinary evidence, if people accept that jesus exists they have to then debate if he did what he did but if we put a barrier at existence it is easier for them, so we end up with the argument "he couldn't have done all this therefore he isn't real"

But I can't blame you guys for taking this protective position it's an easier than researching the evidence fully.

mountainman

The first is the C14 citation of 348 CE which epoch is described by the history of Ammianus Marcillenus and the laws recorded in the Codex Theodosianus. The newly appointed state religion of christianity had this tax exemption status during this epoch while, in stark contrast, the value of imperial land tax had tripled within living memory. Poll tax had been introduced - most likely by Constantine. Oppression, persecution, extortion, arguably the torture of the upper classes, certainly imperial intolerance.

In the text of TAOPATTA we see the refuge of the Hellenes described as a city set in the midst of the sea, surrounded by high walls and raging waves. The people there call it endurance and/or habitation. There is the man holding the palm leaf on the dock. The city is Hellene. It is back to endurance and habitation.

One further historical issue is the figure of Lithargoel. The figure borrows from the traditon of the healers of Asclepius. The healing is via physical herbs and medical knowledge, with an assistant. The figure of Lithargoel outlines the allegorical Road to the City of the Pearl - which he calls his city - the City of Nine Gates - a citation perhaps directly from the Gita.

The identification of Lithargoel as a non christian healer is reinforced by the narrative textual description of the acts of the apostles being arguably a satire. The identification of Lithargoel as a non christian is also reinforced by the other series of entirely non-christian texts bound into the sixth codex by the fourth century secreter at Nag Hammadi - with the most likely suspect being one Pachomius, who saw the light in 324 CE, and vamoosed from the vicinity of Alexandria, and Constantine's destruction.

Some thoughts.


Very. Notably the text of TAOPATTA states

So was it 11, 12 or 13? Could they count?
Another point in favour of a satire and/or parody.



Best wishes,

Pete

spamandham

As depicted in the NT? No. ...although Pilate is close.

However, there may have been a historical core to some of the characters, and that historical core my have had the same name. Here's my assessment of the liklihood of a historical core for these characters, for what it's worth:

1. John the Baptist; 30%, however, I think he is probably rooted in the historical Rebel John recorded in Josephus'
2. Caiphus; 20%, based on his mention in Paul's letters
3. Pilate; 95% based on a combination of records
4. Peter; 20%, but I think he's loosely based on Simon Magus
5. James; 50% based on his mention in both Paul's letters and Josephus
6. Nicodemus; 0.1% - he's almost certainly an invented character of the author of John
7. Mary Magdalene; 10%
8. The Twelve; 0.1% - this is a symbolic group, IMHO, not a historical one
9. Judas; 1% - he's a contrived character. His purpose for being in the story is to be the betrayer
10. Jesus; 10%, there might be a historical core, but if so, I doubt he bore any resemblance to the Jesus in the Gospels
11. Paul; 20%, but I think he was loosely based on Simon Magus