gnosis92

Jesus mythicists, did John the Baptist, Caiphus, Pilate, Peter, James, Nicodemus, Mary Magdalene, the Twelve, Judas, etc., exist?

Logically, it's entirely possible that Jesus did not exist, based on the evidence we have from the NT. I would imagine that if Jesus did not exist, then Mary and Joseph also did not exist. But then, perhaps Pontius Pilate and Ciaphus, John the Baptist, and Peter and James also did not exist.

Which NT figures do you accept as existing, and which ones do you regard as mythical and non-existent, and why?



thanks

Toto

I think this question has been asked before. But anyhow, Jesus is an entirely different character from the other supporting cast in the gospels, and there's no particular connection between his existence and any one else's. There is archeological evidence for Pilate and Caiaphas, and non-Chistian literary evidence for John the Baptist. Judas and Mary Magdalene might well not have eixsted even if Jesus did.

aa5874

The main problem with the Jesus character is once he is deemed to be fiction, then the entire Jesus story characters collapse with him. Their existence become irrelevant.

mountainman

Do you find Jesus fictionalists to be a subset of the mythicists, or another branch of the organic tree of life?

Lazarus (and from the apochyphal NT, Lithargoel).


The rest.

Imperial fiction by the Thirteenth Apostle, Bishop of Bishops and instigator of the The Chrysargyron

Best wishes,


Pete

Chili

The event happened to Jospeh and he alone existed in the flesh to say that the others were real in that they were the personfied forces in the event. You may call them the unfolding cause of predestination by way of sin that yields both vices and virtues that once were created by the TOK and had been retained in the TOL of his own lineage.

For example, Judas was Judaism which must be fully exposed and brought to an end to gain freedom in heaven on earth, yet it was the primary cause of the entire story.

Magdalene was the beautiful and valliant temple tramp of which Coriolanus said: "But know thou first, I loved the maid I married." She is called Eve in Gen. 3 and really was the [lesser]serpent that the [greater] serpent struck in Gen.3:15.

Huon

Nicodemus is mentioned in gJohn 3:1-9, gJohn 7:50, and gJohn 19:39.

The time of his death is unknown. The Roman Martyrology commemorates the finding of his relics, together with those of Sts. Stephen, Gamaliel, and Abibo, on 3 August.

According to Photius (Constantinople, IXth century), Gamaliel was baptized by St. Peter and St. John, together with his son and with Nicodemus. His body, miraculously discovered in the fifth century, is said to be preserved at Pisa, in Italy.

So, one could find some relics of Nicodemus at Pisa.

Who could dispute the existence of Nicodemus, since there are relics of this person, possibly in Pisa ? Eh, eh ...

Doug Shaver

John the Baptist: Probably. Josephus mentions him, and I'm not aware of any reason to suspect Christian tampering with that reference.

Caiaphas: The same.

Pilate: Yes. He is mentioned by Philo as well as Josephus.

Peter: The man whom Paul calls Cephas, yes.

James: A colleague of Cephas also mentioned by Paul, yes.

Nicodemus and Mary Magdalene: Both fictional.

The Twelve: Possibly, a group called by that name existed in the Jerusalem church during Paul's lifetime, but probably not. If they existed, they were not disciples of any founding figure.

Judas: Fictional.

Etc.: In general, anyone whose existence is attested only in the gospels (and documents clearly dependent on the gospels) was probably not a real person -- emphasis on "in general."

bacht

I don't think Jesus ever existed. The existence of Peter (Cephas), James and Paul seems as secure as anything in the NT. The twelve are mentioned by Paul, maybe some kind of council?

Pilate and Caiphas were public figures whose existence may or may not be confirmable by non-Christian evidence. I suspect they are simply markers for dating the rise of the Christ movement in Judea.

I suspect John the Baptizer to be fictional, but I'm not qualified to say for sure.

Judas, Mary Mag, Nicodemus et al spring from the gospel writers' cast of fictional characters.

gnosis92

Fair enough. I do wonder though, if there existed independent evidence to corroborate the existence of most of the figures of the NT, wouldn't that increase the background probability of Jesus historicity and NT as a historically reliable document?

Toto

No, it wouldn't.

In fact, if there were independent evidence of so many people in the NT, you would wonder why there was no solid independent evidence of Jesus? If evidence of others survived, why not Jesus? This makes it more likely that stories about Jesus were made up and placed in a historical setting.