Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 06-04-2008, 07:35 PM

2 Corinthians 2

When I came to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ, even though a door was opened for me in the Lord, 13 my spirit was not at rest because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I took leave of them and went on to Macedonia. 14 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. 15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? 17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.

Why does Paul use the word aroma?

Elijah · 06-04-2008, 08:20 PM

A physical emanation that is particular to the individual.

gstafleu · 06-05-2008, 10:46 AM

The "aroma" of 15 is euodia, which according to LSJ is a sweet smell (notice the eu), esp. of sacrifices. The "fragrance" in 16 is osme, which is either a general smell or a bad one. According to LSJ, the two often appear together. Now I can understand the death-to-death smell being a bad one, but shouldn't the life-to-life one be an euodia as well?

Does this help, or are we now more confused then before?

Gerard Stafleu

Toto · 06-05-2008, 12:16 PM

I'm confused.

This is the source of my question:

Church State Separation Forum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Rodda

The Officers' Christian Fellowship (OCF), whose mission is to "Create a spiritually transformed U.S. military, with Ambassadors for Christ in uniform, empowered by the Holy Spirit," endorses CCC's Military Ministry. OCF consists of over 14,000 officers, with chapters on virtually every U.S. military installation worldwide.

OCF membership reaches into the highest ranks of our military. The organization's current president, Maj. Gen. Robert L. Caslen, Jr. was just named Commanding General of the 25th Infantry Division. Caslen also appeared in uniform at the Pentagon in a promotional video for CCC's Christian Embassy, in which he states, referring to the group's Flag Officers' Fellowship, "we're the aroma of Jesus Christ." . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by another poster

. . WTF is "the aroma of Jesus Christ?" . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Rodda

I have no idea, but I quote it every time I write something about Maj. Gen. Caslen just because of its sheer weirdness.

But Google then told me the source of the quote, and that it seems to be a favorite metaphor of Christian missionaries, but that even some Christian bloggers thought it was weird.

I don't know what Christian missionaries understand by it, or if they even understand it, or what Paul meant.

It does seem like the aroma of Christ is sweet-smelling to the saved, but smells bad to the unbelievers.

But it seemed like there must be something that clarifies this. Is it the relationship between the sweet smell of animal sacrifices and the sacrifice of Jesus?

Toto · 06-05-2008, 02:21 PM

II Corinthians: A Commentary (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Frank J. Matera supports the sacrificial meaning, but it seems that Paul is the sacrifice:

Google books, p. 73

Quote:

To summarize, by employing the metaphor of the triumphal procession, Paul presents God as the conquering general and himself as God's prisoner. Like a captive in a triumphal procession, Paul, faces suffering and perhaps even death because of the ministry he exercises. But unlike the captives in a triumphal process, he willingly follows as apostle, slave, and captive. This is why Paul boasts in his sufferings and tells the Corinthians, "For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, as though sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels and to mortals" (1 Cor 4:9). As he will show, his sufferings in the exercise of his apostolic office paradoxically reveal the gospel that he preaches.

In the second metaphor Paul presents himself as the fragrance which is the knowledge of God (ten osmēn tēs gnōseōs autou) and the fragrant aroma of Christ (Christou euōdia) to God. Although some commentators (Barrett, 98) interpret this metaphor in light of the triumphal procession (Paul is like the incense offered to the gods during the procession), others (Allo, 465) argue that the metaphor should be understood in light of the sacrificial imagery of the Old Testament since "fragrance" (osmē) and "odor" (euōdia) are frequently combined in the Greek Old Testament to describe the sweet smelling fragrance of sacrifice, for example, Gen 8:21; Exod 29:18; Lve 1:9, 13, 17; Num 15:3, 7, 10. In a similar fashion, both words occur in Phil 4:18 and Eph 5:2, and in both instances they are related to the notion of sacrifice.

. . .

Although Paul does not combine the words here, he may still be viewing them in light of such sacrificial imagery. Thus he is the "fragrance" (osmēn) of the knowledge of God because the gospel he preaches (the knowledge of God) is like the fragrance of sweet-smelling sacrifice that spreads forth everywhere. Paul is also the aroma (euōdia) of Christ to God. The odor is the fragrance of Christ's own sacrifice offered on the cross to God, which Paul exudes through his ministry. Thus Paul employs both metaphors (the triumphal procession and the fragrant aroma of sacrificial offering) to clarify the paradoxical nature of his ministry. Although he appears as a defeated and humiliated prisoner to the world, he is in fact exuding the sweet-smelling fragrance of Christ's sacrificial death by the gospel (the knowledge of God) he preaches and the ministry he exercises. Little wonder, then, that he will describe himself as always bearing the dying (nekrōsis) of Jesus (4:10).

Although Paul's ministry is a fragrant aroma to God because it proclaims the death of God's Son, people perceive this "fragrant aroma" in different ways. On the one hand, it is a foul odor from death to death to those who are perishing. On the other, it is a fragrant odor from life to life to those who are being saved. . . he intends to say that his ministry, like the gospel he preaches, is paradoxical in nature and results in a profound division among people. If his gospel is veiled, as some accuse it of being, it is veiled only "to those who are perishing" (4:3) . . .

Do Christian missionaries know of this interpretation, or is it only for the elect?

Evodia is also the name of one of Paul's collaborators.

Clivedurdle · 06-05-2008, 03:11 PM

I thought everyone knew that!

Being brought up pentecostal, this is treated as a key text of the reality of it all - the sweet smell of the roast lamb of God (with mint sauce) does save and nourish the flock.

Pentecostals join this with stuff about annointing with oil, healing and the presence of the holy spirit.

In fact, my mum's conversion story is that she was on a tube train - I think Northern Line to Edgware in the fifties - I think she had been to Billy Graham, and had an overwhelming experience of the aroma of god.

She did like her Chanel no 5 and she never commented on their comparison!

Not sure if she was pregnant with my younger brother, or if I might have been the source of the aroma!!

gstafleu · 06-06-2008, 08:07 AM

Given that osmen and euodia are, according to Toto's quote, often used together in a sacrificial environment, the sacrificial explanation may be as good as it gets. Even though it sounds pretty confused to me.

I wonder if these Knights of Christianity United in Faith (or whatever these officers call themselves) have clued in to this sacrificial aspect, as it means that they will probably be blown to bits in the pursuit of their goal.

Gerard Stafleu

Yellum Notnef · 06-06-2008, 08:14 AM

This is all well and good, but in reality the aroma of Christ is probably bullshit.

Chili · 06-06-2008, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

A physical emanation that is particular to the individual.

. . . but universal to mankind and therefore has the power to speak to us all.

From death to death for those in heaven who have gained new life already and from life to life for purgatorians (Galileans there) who have not yet died to their first life.

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-06-2008, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

A physical emanation that is particular to the individual.

. . . but universal to mankind and therefore has the power to speak to us all.

From death to death for those in heaven who have gained new life already and from life to life for purgatorians (Galileans there) who have not yet died to their first life.

http://frogstar.com/wav/displaywav.asp?fil=looney.wav

06-04-2008, 07:35 PM	#1
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	What is the "aroma of Christ" 2 Corinthians 2 When I came to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ, even though a door was opened for me in the Lord, 13 my spirit was not at rest because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I took leave of them and went on to Macedonia. 14 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. 15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? 17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ. Why does Paul use the word aroma?

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06-04-2008, 08:20 PM	#2
Elijah Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MidWest Posts: 1,894	A physical emanation that is particular to the individual.

06-05-2008, 10:46 AM	#3
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	The "aroma" of 15 is euodia, which according to LSJ is a sweet smell (notice the eu), esp. of sacrifices. The "fragrance" in 16 is osme, which is either a general smell or a bad one. According to LSJ, the two often appear together. Now I can understand the death-to-death smell being a bad one, but shouldn't the life-to-life one be an euodia as well? Does this help, or are we now more confused then before? Gerard Stafleu

06-05-2008, 03:11 PM	#6
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I thought everyone knew that! Being brought up pentecostal, this is treated as a key text of the reality of it all - the sweet smell of the roast lamb of God (with mint sauce) does save and nourish the flock. Pentecostals join this with stuff about annointing with oil, healing and the presence of the holy spirit. In fact, my mum's conversion story is that she was on a tube train - I think Northern Line to Edgware in the fifties - I think she had been to Billy Graham, and had an overwhelming experience of the aroma of god. She did like her Chanel no 5 and she never commented on their comparison! Not sure if she was pregnant with my younger brother, or if I might have been the source of the aroma!!

06-06-2008, 08:07 AM	#7
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Given that osmen and euodia are, according to Toto's quote, often used together in a sacrificial environment, the sacrificial explanation may be as good as it gets. Even though it sounds pretty confused to me. I wonder if these Knights of Christianity United in Faith (or whatever these officers call themselves) have clued in to this sacrificial aspect, as it means that they will probably be blown to bits in the pursuit of their goal. Gerard Stafleu

06-06-2008, 08:14 AM	#8
Yellum Notnef Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Gone Posts: 4,676	This is all well and good, but in reality the aroma of Christ is probably bullshit.

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