Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TedM · 12-18-2012, 08:40 AM

In Justin Martyr's 1st Apology, Chapters 15 & 17, he mentions the role of a 'president' in weekly services:

Quote:

CHAPTER LXV -- ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS.

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.

And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

2 questions:

1. Are these references to a 'president' considered by historians to be another word for 'bishop', as the head of each city Church?

2. Is this the first writing (other than those of Ignatius), in which it is indicated that churches had one individual who presided over everyone who gathered for worship?

Dang it, did it again to title, which I can't edit: 'preciding' should be 'presiding'.

sotto voce · 12-18-2012, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Justin Martyr

The Romans executed all sorts of trash, even their own slimy poseurs and infiltrators. Let's not be naive.

Duvduv · 12-18-2012, 09:45 AM

Notice no mention of communities or a single name of a president, chairman, whoever or whatever. Because in the second century there were NONE. Period.

aa5874 · 12-18-2012, 10:46 AM

The writings of Justin show that there no was such position as "Bishop" in the early Jesus cult.

This is corroborated by Lucian of Samosata in "Death of Peregrine".

See http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/wl4/wl420.htm

Lucian's "Death of Peregrine"

Quote:

It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed. I can tell you, he pretty soon convinced them of his superiority; prophet, elder, ruler of the Synagogue--he was everything at once; expounded their books, commented on them, wrote books himself. They took him for a God, accepted his laws, and declared him their president.

Justin the Christian claimed to be from Palestine--See First Apology.

We have corroboration that there were Christians in Palestine in the 2nd century but NO mention of Bishops.

There is an extremely disturbing pattern in Apologetic writings. Those writings whose chronology, dating and authorship of the NT have been Rejected are the very ones that mention Bishops of Rome since the 1st century.

No Non-Apologetic source mentioned any Bishops of Rome in the 1st century. There is NOT one single secular Roman or Jewish writers that mentioned the Jesus cult, or story with established Church structure of Bishops all over the Roman Empire in the 1st century,

Sheshbazzar · 12-20-2012, 04:02 PM

Leaves 'Saint Ignatius' of -117 CE. with all of his 'Church Bishop's' being so much retrojected latter devised Catholic organizational domination crap.

sotto voce · 12-20-2012, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Leaves 'Saint Ignatius' of -117 CE. with all of his 'Church Bishop's' being so much retrojected latter devised Catholic organizational domination crap.

It doth appear you are a worthy judge;
You know the law, your exposition
Hath been most sound.
An upright judge, a learned judge!
A second Daniel!

stephan huller · 12-20-2012, 05:59 PM

It would be useful if someone cited the Greek for "president" in each case. My guess is that it is a reference to the president of the synagogue, a term which survives today

sotto voce · 12-20-2012, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

It would be useful if someone cited the Greek for "president" in each case. My guess is that it is a reference to the president of the synagogue, a term which survives today

A Roman emperor such as Hadrian would have found congenial the concept of a controlling president whom he could control. He would not want public criticism of the keeping of catamites.

Toto · 12-20-2012, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

In Justin Martyr's 1st Apology, Chapters 15 & 17, he mentions the role of a 'president' in weekly services:

CHAPTER LXV -- ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS.

..

CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.

...

Chapter LXV is Chapter 65, not chapter 15. :Cheeky:

It looks like the Greek is available at:
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.e...Ordinatus.html

But it's a difficult to read pdf. I actually found a Catholic Answers forum with this question and the answer:

Quote:

In chapter 65 of Justin Martyr's First Apology, the Greek reads: proestoti ton adelphon.
The Latin reads: qui fratribus praeest.

It is my understanding that the Greek can be translated as 'the president of the brethren' or 'that one of the brethren who was presiding'.

Perseus πρόεδρ-ος , ὁ,

Quote:

A. one who sits in the first place, president, Th.8.67; “ἐν δίκῃ” Pl.Lg.949a, cf. PPetr.3p.44(iii B.C.): metaph., “ὁ τῆς μαντείας π. ἀετός” Arist.HA601b2.
II. at Athens, in pl., presiding officers of the βουλή or ἐκκλησία, Lex ap. D.24.21, Aeschin.2.65, Arist.Ath.44.2; “οἱ λαχόντες π.” IG22.779.11, 1227.23, al.; “τοὺς π. οἳ ἂν λάχωσι προεδρεύειν” SIG158.5 (iv B.C.), etc.; similar officers at Mytilene, Th.3.25; “ὁ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν π.” App.Mac.9.1; “μέλλοντος τοῦ π. τὸν δῆμον ἐπερωτᾶν” Plu.Arist.3, cf. “ἐπιψηφίζω” 1.2; π. Ἑρμοῦ πόλεως city councillors of Hermupolis, BGU1027 i 10(iv A.D.).

stephan huller · 12-20-2012, 08:03 PM

Philo refers to leaders as if male: hoi ephemêreutoi (66), hoi presbyteroi (67), and ho proedros (75). http://books.google.com/books?id=0gr...ed=0CCsQ6AEwAA

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12-18-2012, 09:45 AM	#3
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Notice no mention of communities or a single name of a president, chairman, whoever or whatever. Because in the second century there were NONE. Period.

12-20-2012, 04:02 PM	#5
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Leaves 'Saint Ignatius' of -117 CE. with all of his 'Church Bishop's' being so much retrojected latter devised Catholic organizational domination crap.

12-20-2012, 05:59 PM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	It would be useful if someone cited the Greek for "president" in each case. My guess is that it is a reference to the president of the synagogue, a term which survives today

12-20-2012, 08:03 PM	#10
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Philo refers to leaders as if male: hoi ephemêreutoi (66), hoi presbyteroi (67), and ho proedros (75). http://books.google.com/books?id=0gr...ed=0CCsQ6AEwAA

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