Freethought & Rationalism Archive

punk77 · 04-29-2006, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

It has long been the observation of compassionate Believers, Jewish and other, that such laws as would require parents to stone their children, or to exclude certain members of society for circumstances of birth, disfigurement, or ethnicity, were never intended to be taken literally, or acted upon, but were written to arouse us to a higher and more noble concept of what is just and right.
"Breach for a breach, eye for eye..." literally? not likely; the higher and more noble concept has always been forgiveness rather than retribution.

If they were not meant to be taken literally then why give them in the wording that was used:huh:. This is meant to be God we are dealing with. Surely God would have foreseen how things would pan out:huh:.

Dark Virtue · 04-29-2006, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punk77

Surely God would have foreseen how things would pan out:huh:.

You would think so, wouldn't you.

I don't think omniscience is all it's cracked up to be.

Sheshbazzar · 04-29-2006, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punk77

If they were not meant to be taken literally then why give them in the wording that was used:huh:. This is meant to be God we are dealing with. Surely God would have foreseen how things would pan out:huh:.

"...how things would pan out", That is one of the keys to the matter, things are still in the process, the "end" has not came into being yet, many "things" remain to be accomplished, as for example the scenarios set out in Zechariah 14:16-19. or Malachi 3:16-18 and 4:1-5

Many nations have not yet even heard of YHWH The Holy One of Israel, or the name of His Redeemer.
Touching the Laws, statutes and commandments written in The Book of The Law, YHWH has long time since, spoke of how Israel His servant, had been disobedient to His Laws, (Ezekiel 20:5-24) and what He would DO about it.
Wherefore, He said;

Quote:

I gave them My statutes and showed them my judgments, which if a man DO, he shall even live in them.

(Ezekiel 20:11-13)
But they DID NOT, so He said;

Quote:

Wherefore -I- gave them also statutes that were NOT good, and judgments whereby they SHOULD NOT live;

(Ezekiel 20:25)
And in Isaiah, He declares;

Quote:

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them, because when I called, None did answer; when I spoke they did not hear; but did evil before My eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

And 2 Thessalonians speaking of things yet to come, confirms;

Quote:

And now you know what withholds, that he might be revealed in his time. ( but of course, you do not know)
For the mystery of iniquity is already at work; and he who now restrains, until he be removed.
And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom YAHOSHUA shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
Even him, whose coming is according to the working of The Adversary with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all the deceptions of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved,
And for this reason YHWH shall send them A STRONG DELUSION , that they should believe a lie;

YHWH sends His "strong delusions" by His words, they that pollute and pervert His words are "The prophets of the deceit of their own hearts...."
Directed first at Israel of old, but also to all that were to come after.

YHWH has both foreseen, and planned "how things would pan out" That is why He gave Believers many words of warning against all that is to come, not that they would live in fear of what must come, but that they might both know it, and how to avoid avoid falling in with it.

Dina Noun · 04-29-2006, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

"...how things would pan out", That is one of the keys to the matter, things are still in the process, the "end" has not came into being yet, many "things" remain to be accomplished, as for example the scenarios set out in Zechariah 14:16-19. or Malachi 3:16-18 and 4:1-5

Really? But the end has already come and gone, according to Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior.

Quote:

Then Jesus said to his disciples, … ”For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with the angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
(Matthew 16:24, 27-28)

and ...

Quote:

[Then Jesus said to his disciples and the crowd,] “If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels”.

And he said to them, “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.”
(Mark 8:38 – 9:1)

All of those who were standing with Jesus died ... a long time ago. So the end has already come and gone ... or was Jesus wrong?

Also makes you wonder why Jesus told the High Priest that he would see Jesus coming again on the clouds...

Quote:

Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"

"I am", said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
(Mark 14:61-62)

Again, Jesus indicated His return was imminent: the chief priest would see His return.

Jesus thought the end of the current age, and the beginning of the new age, was imminent: not more than 2000 years off.

Jesus was a falliable, human, Jewish apocalypticist; not a God.

Sheshbazzar · 04-29-2006, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dina Noun

All of those who were standing with Jesus died ... a long time ago.

Really? have you found and identified each of those individuals bones?

Answering what you did not ask, it is a tenet of my faith that some of them are still alive, moving among, and watching over us, no more foolish after all, than believing that bodies chopped into pieces or burned into ashes will reassemble and resurrect to be witnesses against them that did the chopping and burning.

Quote:

So the end has already come and gone ... or was Jesus wrong?

two parts,
1. No, the "end" has NOT already come and gone, else you would not be here.

2. The Saviour (not "Gee"-anything) was NOT wrong, read all of the Bible, there are a lot more things that will happen before The End.

Dina Noun · 04-29-2006, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Dina Noun: All of those who were standing with Jesus died ... a long time ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Really? have you found and identified each of those individuals bones?

Answering what you did not ask, it is a tenet of my faith that some of them are still alive ...

Oh, okay. I see that reasonable debate with you will not be possible.

Bye.

Sheshbazzar · 04-29-2006, 08:27 AM

Quote:

"I am", said Jesus,<sic> "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
(Mark 14:61-62)

Quote:

Again, Jesus indicated His return was imminent: the chief priest would see His return.

No such indication, ALL will see him on That DAY, at the resurrection of the dead.

Sheshbazzar · 04-29-2006, 08:37 AM

Anyone ready to return to the topic of this thread,
"When and where are the OT Laws repealed"?
They never were, and are all still in effect against those who refuse the gift of His favor, which is freely given to all who believe on Him.

Dina Noun · 04-29-2006, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Anyone ready to return to the topic of this thread,
"When and where are the OT Laws repealed"?
They never were, and are all still in effect..

Then are you out killing gay men?

Quote:

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
(Leviticus 20:13)

punk77 · 04-29-2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

"...how things would pan out", That is one of the keys to the matter, things are still in the process, the "end" has not came into being yet, many "things" remain to be accomplished, as for example the scenarios set out in Zechariah 14:16-19. or Malachi 3:16-18 and 4:1-5. Many nations have not yet even heard of YHWH The Holy One of Israel, or the name of His Redeemer.
Touching the Laws, statutes and commandments written in The Book of The Law, YHWH has long time since, spoke of how Israel His servant, had been disobedient to His Laws, (Ezekiel 20:5-24) and what He would DO about it. Wherefore, He said;
(Ezekiel 20:11-13)
But they DID NOT, so He said;
(Ezekiel 20:25)
And in Isaiah, He declares;

And 2 Thessalonians speaking of things yet to come, confirms;

YHWH sends His "strong delusions" by His words, they that pollute and pervert His words are "The prophets of the deceit of their own hearts...."
Directed first at Israel of old, but also to all that were to come after.

YHWH has both foreseen, and planned "how things would pan out" That is why He gave Believers many words of warning against all that is to come, not that they would live in fear of what must come, but that they might both know it, and how to avoid avoid falling in with it

.

Quote:

Many nations have not yet even heard of YHWH The Holy One of Israel, or the name of His Redeemer.

Could you name one nation that has not had some type of Christian missionary visiting:huh:. How many/what percentage of people in each country in the world have to have heard of the biblical God/Jesus before this can be fullfilled? I don't really expect you to answer these questions with hard-and-fast figures, I am just posing them to show what a get-out clause they appear to be to most people who do not believe.

Quote:

Touching the Laws, statutes and commandments written in The Book of The Law, YHWH has long time since, spoke of how Israel His servant, had been disobedient to His Laws, (Ezekiel 20:5-24) and what He would DO about it.

Again, just because Israel (which had been specially chosen by God) broke his laws why would he let others carry the can:huh:.

Quote:

YHWH has both foreseen, and planned "how things would pan out" That is why He gave Believers many words of warning against all that is to come, not that they would live in fear of what must come, but that they might both know it, and how to avoid avoid falling in with it

In all the Old Testament there is no mention of a saviour who would have to have a second try at saving the world. So the verses that are quoted from the Old Testament could be taken as a warning to people who throw their lot in with Jesus/Paul.

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04-29-2006, 08:37 AM	#218
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Anyone ready to return to the topic of this thread, "When and where are the OT Laws repealed"? They never were, and are all still in effect against those who refuse the gift of His favor, which is freely given to all who believe on Him.

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