Spenser

Hello All.

In the EoG forum I made the statement that written history from the ancient Egyptians and the Ancient Chinese is proof positive that a world wide flood did not occur. I also posited varves and the Green River Shale as evidence for a much older world than that of the bible.

Now ponder a reference to a site the talks about differing ancient civilizations having differing flood myths at differing times; I'm not sure how this helps his case at all. My point was simply to show that if you can demonstrate any part of the bible false, it is fallible. I was arguing against biblical inerrancy.

This pretty much kills any possibility of a world wide flood having ever occurred. So my point at proving the bible fallible was made (note I was arguing with Theophilus and not BGiC) But now that BGiC has piped in; How can any one accept that a world wide flood was occurring when at the time of said flood (a few different estimations) there WAS written history occurring (Viod of such accounts). Varying flood myths in ancient civilizations doesn't mean anything, there are varying volcano myths and earth quake myths and so on. Is it any surprise ancient peoples talked about natural disasters? Now I am not a historian so I thought people here could help me out with this.

Mageth

Well, the way I see it, there's several possibilities to explain the various flood myths found around the world (they're even found in Native American myths, BTW):

1) A global deluge happened, and the varying myths all trace back to that event

- There is no geologic, archaeological, or other evidence to indicate such a flood ever occurred (actually, the earth may have been completely covered with water 3 billion or so years ago, but irrelevant).
- There are obvious, serious scientific problems with a global flood.
- not all mythologies include an account of a global flood. It would seem a bit odd for a culture to drop such a significant myth.
- the myths vary greatly - more so than one would expect if the account had originated some 4000 years ago.
+ it's possible that most or all flood myths trace back to the widespread flooding that would have occurred at the end of the last Ice Age (for which there is evidence).

2) A global flood did not happen, but a local myth possibly based on local events diffused into other cultures.

+ there are mythological tales and motifs common to many mythologies; diffusion is a possible explanation (but note that there are significant differences, which limits the diffusion claim).
- hard to explain how the accounts diffused into Mesoamerica, since the first inhabitants arrived here some 11-13,000 years ago.
- again, the differences between some of the flood myths are significant, though many could be explained by adaptation into the local culture

3) Different mythologies "invented" their own flood myths, possibly based on local events

+ flooding is a common occurrence around the world, and mythologies include other myths about other sorts of natural disasters.
+ accounts easily for the differences, as the myth would be created to fit the culture and its mythology.
+ accounts for the occurrence of such myths in Mesoamerican mythologies, which diffusion has a hard time explaining.

I'm having a hard time coming up with any negatives for this one.


Any others?

Of the above, I think what we see is a combination of 2) and 3) - multiple origins of flood myths, with some diffusion into other mythologies.

penumbra

Well, I heard a theory the other day that the Toba supervolcano eruption created a tsunami and that incident was really the basis for all the flood myths. Theory goes that you pass the story down thru thousands of generations with elaboration, interpretattion, mixture of local events, etc. and....viola. Alledgedly explains the population bottleneck relative to the fact that the flood myths always seem to talk about mankind being nearly wiped out.

Personally I don't know enough about any of the sciences involved to even make a comment about it, but figured I'd throw it out here for for you folks to shoot down and educate me at the same time.

Doctor X

Planet X . . . you forgot the influence of Planet X. . . .

Frankly, given that BillyGrahamiswhatever unceremoniously fled from previous threads that demonstrated biblical errors, I doubt you will get anywhere with him here.

--J.D.

[Kindly refrain from poisoning the well in future.]

Grumpy

How about: a global flood occurred, but we have the dates wrong. Egyptian and Chinese cultures post-date the Flood (and Tower of Babel, natch).

Mageth

That seems to be a variation of the first, suffering from most of the same problems, and that calls the typical Biblically-derived dates into question.

Mageth

Perhaps this calls for a fourth cagegory that I didn't include:

4) a global, or at least widespread, flooding event that was not the total deluge described in the Bible occurred that is a source of the flood myths.

My point from above could be moved to this category:

+ it's possible that most or all flood myths trace back to the widespread flooding that would have occurred at the end of the last Ice Age (for which there is evidence).

Tod

Over the last few years evidence has surfaced that a large flood occurred about 7 or 8 thousand years ago. This flood resulted from situations Mageth already described regarding the end of the ice age. As glaciers melted, the Black Sea no longer received water from the glaciers, and it depth dropped to a few hundred feet below that of the Mediterranean. At the same time, water that was temporarily removed from the water cycle as snow and ice was now falling as rain, increasing ocean levels world wide by several hundred feet. The Mediterranean basically overflowed. The journey to the Black Sea was downhill, so the result was a massive flood rushing through the land separating the two bodies of water. This wall of water is thought to have been (to the best of my memory) miles wide and 100 feet tall.

To simple people living a sedentary lifestyle in the area, the flood would surely seem to be "world-wide," considering how narrow their awareness of the scale of the world was. It would certainly be good inspiration for long enduring myths. A boat with two of each animal would be a logical addition for people living much later but still telling the story. After all, if the flood was world-wide, why are there still animals and people around? Simple enough: somebody must have built a boat! The story evolves.
Considering the relative proximity of this occurrence with the Mesopotamia area, it seems likely that such an event would be remembered by the later societies of Babylon and Sumeria that occupied that area. The Genesis accounting is clearly a rip-off of these others. I have little doubt that this could very well be the event that inspired these stories.

Of course, that would do nothing for mesoamerican flood stories, but as Mageth pointed out, flooding occurs commonly all over the world.

I was wondering, however, what the source of these mesoamerican flood stories are, and if you have a reference to translations of the story/ies.

Mageth

I was wondering, however, what the source of these mesoamerican flood stories are, and if you have a reference to translations of the story/ies.

Well, possibly from the same source - there was likely at least considerably flooding, including rising oceans, in the Americas resulting from the melting glaciers.

And here's a link to a list of books on Mesoamerican mythology. I haven't read any of these, so I can't make a recommendation.

This page includes short accounts of a number of native and meso-american flood myths, as well as other myths from the Americas.

Spenser

One problem I see Tod is that the last ice age was 18,000 years ago...