Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Avery · 03-17-2006, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

Are you suggesting that it is twisting scriptures to say that Ezekiel prophesized that Tyre would be nothing but a bare rock forever?

Definitely, twisting. The scripture did not say that. Tyre was made into a bald rock. And that scripture was well-fulfilled, probably agreed upon by all sides.

So, instead of two posts trying to fudge the issue, one earnestly and one pseudo-humorously, why not one simply saying ...
"oops, correction accepted".

Ironically, when I first started to look at it I was wondering about the supposed forever, due to all the interesting discussions with preterists about "end of the age" and the words involved.

However in this case there was no word involved.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Johnny Skeptic · 03-17-2006, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by praxeus

From what I have read, the making of Tyre as the top of a rock did occur, remarkably, in a way that would be hard to apply to few other cities anywhere (eg. perhaps the rock section of Jerusalem razed, per Josephus, became like a bald rock, but no fishing nets there).

Remarkable things happen every day. Without any divine intervention at all, it far more likely that very unusual things will sometimes occur than that they will never occur. When very unusual things happen, they do not beat the odds, rather they fulfill the odds. The best example of a "miracle" would be if very unusual things DID NOT sometimes occur. It would take divine intervention to assure that they wouldn't sometime occur. In 1,000,000 hands of poker, usually at least one royal flush is dealt. If one person got dealt two royal flushes in a row, would you call it a miracle? Of course you wouldn't. A few days ago on television I saw a man who was able to stay in freezing water for about an hour on some occasions. The television commentator said that most people would be dead within 20 minutes under those conditions. Now if that man had been a Charismatic Christian, hadn't known that he was able to do that, accidently fell into freezing water with no help around, and was rescued by some people an hour later, he and many other Christians would probably have called it a miracle.

Who knows how many things that Bible prophets predicted might have been revised or written after the fact?

Even if God can predict the future, so what? If he is evil and plans to send everyone to hell, you would not brag that he could predict the future. Paul says that Satan has transformed himself into an angel of light. Following that same line of reasoning, if God is evil, it would be quite natural for him to transform himself into an angel of light too. If God is evil, then by definition he would be able to duplicate anything that is attibuted to the God of the Bible. Paul's problem is that he does not provide believers with a reliable method of finding out what God's true nature really is.

Steven Avery · 03-17-2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

In 1,000,000 hands of poker, usually at least one royal flush is dealt... Who knows how many things that Bible prophets predicted might have been revised or written after the fact?

Johnny, the others skeptics here do not like your tacit acknowledgment of the highly improbable, unusual bald rock/fishing net aspect of the Tyre prophecy, with its historical fulfillment. They were trying to fold that into the other questions about "built no more". Thanks for helping keep all the cards on the table.

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-17-2006, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Definitely, twisting. The scripture did not say that. Tyre was made into a bald rock. And that scripture was well-fulfilled, probably agreed upon by all sides.

No it wasn't. Tyre was never made into a "bald rock" ever, for any amount of time.

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-17-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by praxeus

Johnny, the others skeptics here do not like your tacit acknowledgment of the highly improbable, unusual bald rock/fishing net aspect of the Tyre prophecy, with its historical fulfillment. They were trying to fold that into the other questions about "built no more". Thanks for helping keep all the cards on the table.

There was no historical fulfillment. Johnny would be mistaken if he were to accept it. It never happened.

Johnny Skeptic · 03-17-2006, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by praxeus

Johnny, the others skeptics here do not like your tacit acknowledgment of the highly improbable, unusual bald rock/fishing net aspect of the Tyre prophecy, with its historical fulfillment. They were trying to fold that into the other questions about "built no more". Thanks for helping keep all the cards on the table.

How improbable would it be for an evil God to successfully transform himself into an angel of light? Any decent mathematican will tell you that the odds are much greater that very unusual things will sometimes happen than that they will never happen, and of course, without any divine intervention at all. There is not any evidence at all that the mainland settlement ever looked like a bald rock, and there is not anything unusual about people living near water spreading fishing nets to dry. Since the mainland settlement was rebuilt on a number of occasions, what was the point of God making it a bare
rock, and what was the point of God finally getting even with the inhabitants of the mainland settement centuries AFTER the Tyrians whom the prophecy was spoken against had died? At any rate, as I showed in my previous post, if God is evil, you wouldn't brag that he can predict the future. By what means have you determined that God is good and not masquerading as an evil God?

dongiovanni1976x · 03-17-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by praxeus

Definitely, twisting. The scripture did not say that. Tyre was made into a bald rock. And that scripture was well-fulfilled, probably agreed upon by all sides.

How is it twisting scriptures to say that when Ezekiel predicted that Tyre (1)would be plundered, (2)have its houses destroyed, (3)its stone and timber cast into the water, (4)have its inhabitants slaughtered (i.e. cast into the Pit of the dead), (5)be covered by the great waters (of the the Mediterranean Sea) so far that all that would remain is a bare rock used for drying fishing nets that he meant that this would be Tyre's fate forever, given that he said it would never be rebuilt, which implies that very thing...? If a city was leveled in the way described in Ezekiel 26, and it did in fact become a bare rock AND never was rebuilt or inhabited, then wouldn't it still be a bare rock?

-And-

When exactly was it in history that you believe that Tyre was made into this "bald rock"?

Farrell Till · 03-17-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

You need a new hobby!

Don't be a Net' Nanny!

Join the fun..................

[size=2]The city of Tyre was one of the most prominent commercial cities in the Mediterranean in ancient times.

Today, nothing of its supremacy remains. - By Will Skiles

The Judeo-Christian Scriptures predicted the desolation of Tyre: that God in His righteous judgment would destroy this city because of its people's sins against Him. The Scriptures provide significant insight into the nature of the Hebrew God, Yahweh, His attributes, and why He is to be feared and honored.

How many times must we tell Richbee that the prophecy was not that Tyre would lose its supremacy forever but that the city itself would be permanently destroyed and never built again?

Quote:

Ezekiel 26:14 I will make you a bare rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets. You shall never again be rebuilt, for I Yahweh have spoken, says Yahweh GOD.[/b]

26:19 For thus says Yahweh God: When I make you a city laid waste, like cities that are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you, and the great waters cover you, 20 then I will thrust you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of long ago, and I will make you live in the world below, among primeval ruins, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you will not be inhabited or have a place in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a dreadful end, and you shall be no more; though sought for, you will never be found again, says Yahweh God.

27:36 "The merchants among the peoples hiss at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever."

Although if Tyre had been permanently destroyed itself, it would have certainly lost its "glory" and commercial greatness, the prophecy was not that its glory would be lost but that the city itself would be destroyed and never rebuilt. That failed to happen.

I assume no one is having any difficulty seeing that Richbee is unable to reply to these rebuttals. <edit>

Farrell Till
The Skeptical Review Online
http://www.theskepticalreview.com

Farrell Till · 03-17-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by praxeus

Definitely, twisting. The scripture did not say that. Tyre was made into a bald rock. And that scripture was well-fulfilled, probably agreed upon by all sides.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

When was Tyre made into a bald rock? Nebuchadnezzar certainly didn't do this, and neither did Alexander the Great, whom most biblical inerrantists identify as the one who fulfilled Ezekiel's prophecy. Here is Wallace B. Fleming's description of what Alexander left behind him at Tyre.

Quote:

Alexander then left the city, which was half burnt, ruined, and almost depopulated. The blackened forms of two thousand crucified soldiers bore ghastly witness to the completeness of the conquest. The siege had lasted from the middle of January till the middle of July, 332 BC. The city did not lie in ruins long. Colonists were imported and citizens who had escaped returned. The energy of these with the advantage of the site, in a few years raised the city to wealth and leadership again" (Wallace B. Fleming, The History of Tyre, Columbia University Press, NY, 1915, p. 64).

Although this is a description of a defeated, desolated city, it is certainly not the description of a bald rock, so when was Tyre made into this bald rock?

Farrell Till
The Skeptical Review Online
http://www.theskepticalreview.com

Farrell Till · 03-17-2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by praxeus

Hi Farrell .. greetings.

Hmmm.. Question about the above.
Haven't you improperly telescoped your scripture clauses ?

Ezekiel 26:3-5
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus,
and will cause many nations to come up against thee,
as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus,
and break down her towers:
I will also scrape her dust from her,
and make her like the top of a rock.
It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea:
for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD:
and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

Ezekiel 26:14
And I will make thee like the top of a rock:
thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon;
thou shalt be built no more:
for I the LORD have spoken it,
saith the Lord GOD.

From what I have read, the making of Tyre as the top of a rock did occur, remarkably, in a way that would be hard to apply to few other cities anywhere (eg. perhaps the rock section of Jerusalem razed, per Josephus, became like a bald rock, but no fishing nets there).

In a post that I sent before I saw this one, I asked when Tyre had been made into a bald rock. I know of no evidence that this has ever happened. As I explained in the other post, even Alexander the Great left the city in ruins and nearly depopulated, but ruins and a greatly reduced population would hardly be the same as a bald rock.

Quote:

Now, above, referring to the bald-rockishness that Tyre became, you place in Ezekiel's mouth the word forever, but it is not in the text. Apparently you are taking that from "built no more", which is a bit of word play and clause-hopping.

Okay, I will agree that the prophecy did not say that Tyre would be made a bald rock forever, although some inerrantists today do contend that the ancient site of Tyre is still a bare rock. This is merely incidental to the predicament that Richbee finds himself in, because he is claiming that the prophecy was fulfilled. Hence, he must show that at least the city was permanently destroyed and has never been rebuilt.

Farrell Till
The Skeptical Review Online
http://www.theskepticalreview.com

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