Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 04-22-2012, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Haha. I think rather than suggesting widespread skepticism, since even people with privately skeptical stances have to take publicly affirming stances, it rather suggests that the documents are produced for some other audience, namely, the believers in those gods from whom new Christians were being recruited.

Yes, that's a point; they were for internal consumption only, and not actually sent. "Hey guys, I just told the Emperor off and good. And here's the letter I just sent to him!" I'm not aware of any evidence that those letters were actually received by the Emperor and the Senate, so it is a possibility.

Hey, Hey!!! You INVENT your OWN story. You believe the Pauline letters were SENT off so why are you inventing stories that they these letters of YOUR Christian brothers, Justin and Athenagoras, were NOT sent off???

Please, tell us when the Pauline letters were sent off and when they were written???

And further, it is irrelevant if the writings of Justin and Athenagoras were NOT sent off becaust they still do NOT mention the FOUR Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline writings.

Duvduv · 04-22-2012, 10:28 PM

And in Athenagoras Christians were "anointed" by whom to do or believe what? It doesn't say? Now why would an original author not explain that at all?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

So Athenagoras believed his Christians were anointed by whom to do what and believe in what exactly? He never says. Where else are there claims of anointed Christians who live somewhere but who don't believe in Jesus or anything recognizeable?
Nowhere! And where else is there any information of a community of believers of Justin's sect?
Nowhere! Not a single blessed name of a single colleague or community in his entire Apology. Nothing. Nada. Zippo. Because there wasn't one. It was all made up as things moved along.Justin couldn't even name his Old Man or anything about him because the Old Man didn't exist.
The beginnings of Christ ideas before a Paul was created.

And Paul didn't even know what Justin knew about messianic verses in the Tanakh.

Well, that is precisely why they are NOT manipulated sources. Again, if they were manipulated they would look like "Against Heresies".

Athenagoras and Justin tend to show that the Jesus movement was at its very early stage in the mid 2nd century and was NOT well known.

It is very important to understand that Paul and the Pauline letters with Acts of the Apostles were fabricated giving the FALSE Impression that the Jesus movement was well established in the Roman Empire at least 100 years earlier.

However, in Justin's and Athenagors' writings it would appear that the Roman people, the Senate and Emperor did NOT know much about the Jesus movement.

Once it is understood that the Jesus movement was started or was in its very early stage in the mid 2nd century then we will quickly realize that the Pauline writings are bogus and were COMPLETELY unknown as appears to be confirmed by Athenagoras and Justin.

Justin and Athenagoras knew NOTHING of Four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings but Irenaeus a supposed contemporary knows EVERY Pauline Epistle , Acts of the Apostles ,the authors of Four Gospels, and ALL the Bishops of Rome..

Why are these NOT in Justin and Athenagoras???

The answer is rather simple they were NOT manipulated.

We know what manipulated sources look like. We have "Against Heresies".

arnoldo · 04-23-2012, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

What significance can be determined by possible similarities between Justin Martyr and Athenagoras of Athens appeal towards the Roman Emperor for fair treatment of Christians?

Excellent topic! You can see how both are appealing to the Emperors as fellow philosophers, stressing the philosophical credentials of Christianity, suggesting that the Romans still viewed Christians as a superstitious sect.

What is interesting to me is how both they and other Christian apologists of the Second Century:
1. Use the Hebrew Scriptures to support their arguments
2. Claim that the Roman gods were in fact demons pretending to be those gods, or were creations of stories inspired by demons.

Why would they think that the Emperors would take the Hebrew Scriptures as authoritative? It suggests an on-going fascination and appreciation that Romans had with those scriptures.

And why would the Christians think they would get anywhere by running down the Roman gods? "We want leniency, and oh by the way, your gods are rubbish!" I think it suggests a wide-spread skepticism amongst the Romans towards their own gods. I suspect that the popularity of a renewed Platonism was revising the philosophical landscape of the intellectual world of the time.

Here is Athenagoras:

If we satisfied ourselves with advancing such considerations as these, our doctrines might by some be looked upon as human. But, since the voices of the prophets confirm our arguments--for I think that you also, with your great zeal for knowledge, and your great attainments in learning, cannot be ignorant of the writings either of Moses or of Isaiah and Jeremiah, and the other prophets...

These angels, then, who have fallen from heaven, and haunt the air and the earth, and are no longer able to rise to heavenly things, and the souls of the giants, which are the demons who wander about the world, perform actions similar, the one (that is, the demons) to the natures they have received, the other (that is, the angels) to the appetites they have indulged...

They who draw men to idols, then, are the aforesaid demons, who are eager for the blood of the sacrifices, and lick them; but the gods that please the multitude, and whose names are given to the images, were men, as may be learned from their history. And that it is the demons who act under their names, is proved by the nature of their operations. For some castrate, as Rhea; others wound and slaughter, as Artemis; the Tauric goddess puts all strangers to death.

Justin Martyr:

There were, then, among the Jews certain men who were prophets of God, through whom the prophetic Spirit published beforehand things that were to come to pass, ere ever they happened. And their prophecies, as they were spoken and when they were uttered, the kings who happened to be reigning among the Jews at the several times carefully preserved in their possession, when they had been arranged in books by the prophets themselves in their own Hebrew language. And when Ptolemy king of Egypt formed a library, and endeavoured to collect the writings of all men, he heard also of these prophets, and sent to Herod, who was at that time king of the Jews, requesting that the books of the prophets be sent to him. And Herod the king did indeed send them, written, as they were, in the foresaid Hebrew language. And when their contents were found to be unintelligible to the Egyptians, he again sent and requested that men be commissioned to translate them into the Greek language. And when this was done, the books remained with the Egyptians, where they are until now. They are also in the possession of all Jews throughout the world; but they, though they read, do not understand what is said, but count us foes and enemies; and, like yourselves, they kill and punish us whenever they have the power, as you can well believe. For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy...

But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things.

Theophilus of Antioch takes a similar stance of attacking the pagan gods in a defense of his own Christian beliefs. IIRC, Rodney Stark, in some of his writings hypothesizes that belief in pagan gods was in decline throughout the Roman Empire, perhaps leading to a vacuum which Christianity subsequently filled. Like Justin and Athenagoras, Theophilus begins his plea by claiming that being a Christian is not an offense,

Quote:

Since, then, my friend, you have assailed me with empty words, boasting of your gods of wood and stone, hammered and cast, carved and graven, which neither see nor hear, for they are idols, and the works of men's hands; and since, besides, you call me a Christian, as if this were a damning name to bear, I, for my part, avow that I am a Christian, and bear this name beloved of God, hoping to be serviceable to God. . .

. . . followed by an attack against the pagan gods.

Quote:

. . . Is not Saturn found to be a cannibal, destroying and devouring his own children? And if you name his son Jupiter, hear also his deeds and conduct--first, how he was suckled by a goat on Mount Ida, and having slain it, according to the myths, and flayed it, he made himself a coat of the hide. And his other deeds,--his incest, and adultery, and lust,-- will be better recounted by Homer and the rest of the poets. Why should I further speak of his sons? How Hercules burnt himself; and about the drunk and raging Bacchus; and of Apollo fearing and fleeing from Achilles, and falling in love with Daphne, and being unaware of the fate of Hyacinthus; and of Venus wounded, and of Mars, the pest of mortals; and of the ichor flowing from the so-called gods. . . Now, it is not we who publish these things, but your own writers and poets.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lus-book1.html

Duvduv · 04-23-2012, 08:13 PM

Theophilus was defending WHICH Christian beliefs??!

mountainman · 04-24-2012, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

IIRC, Rodney Stark, in some of his writings hypothesizes that belief in pagan gods was in decline throughout the Roman Empire, perhaps leading to a vacuum which Christianity subsequently filled.

The coins of the Roman Emperors tell a different story. There is continuous sponsorship of the pagan gods on their coins from Julius Caesar to Diocletian which is truncated with the rise of the Christian emperors. See the extract below. Additionally an examination of the monumental evidence suggests the same thing - temples and shrines and sponsorship of the pagan gods was alive under the Emperor Diocletian. Constantine OTOH was the destroyer of these traditions.

The decline of worship of the pagan gods was not gradual but sudden and unexpected. The vacuum of their worship was reinforced by Constantine's prohibition of sacrifice and temple business, a prohibition which was, at least in the major cities (Rome, Alexandria, New Rome, Ephesus, Antioch, etc), enforced by the imperial troops.

Coins of the Emperors

054 CE to 324 CE -- COINAGE of the Roman Emperors

SOURCE: Asclepius: The God of Medicine - By Gerald D. Hart: (p.177)

Indicates that the forty six of the Roman emperor for the period of almost three centuries depicted on their minted coins the figure of Asclepius or Salus. This represents a fairly extensive and persistent tradition. Notably the practice ceases in the year 324 CE, at which time the military supremacist Constantine secured the entire Roman empire as his own.

mountainman · 04-24-2012, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

What significance can be determined by possible similarities between Justin Martyr and Athenagoras of Athens appeal towards the Roman Emperor for fair treatment of Christians?

The letter exchanges between these profiles and Roman Emperors include manifest forgeries. They are in theory appealing to the wisdom of the Emperor Marcus Aurelius, author of "Meditations", which was interpolated to provide another reference to Christians.

The significance of all this can only be seen by looking outside the box of the heresiologists who have preserved these forgeries as authentic. Set aside the story of Christian origins and study the "Historia Augusta", a 4th century text that describes the "Life of the Caesars". It includes over 160 forged documents (think of "Historia Ecclesiastica"). It includes fabricated sources - that is people who did not exist. It also includes other fabricated sources who argue with the first series of invented sources. (See the arguments between the orthodox and the heretics in "Historia Ecclesiastica").

Early Christian Pleas to the Emperor, and the Emperor's Official Responses

This is fiction and propaganda.

This is pseudo-history, not history.

Tertullian wants us to believe that some Emperors were Christians in their heart.

Eusebius wants us to believe that the Emperor Philip the Arab became a Christian in order to honor the millenial celebration of Rome.

The source for these pleas (Athenagoras, Justin, Tertullian et al) is the "Church History" of Eusebius. Investigators must clearly understand that the "Augustan Historia" is a mockumentary. Eusebius's "Church History" is of the same genre.

aa5874 · 04-24-2012, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

....The source for these pleas (Athenagoras, Justin, Tertullian et al) is the "Church History" of Eusebius. Investigators must clearly understand that the "Augustan Historia" is a mockumentary. Eusebius's "Church History" is of the same genre.

There is NO evidence that Eusebius is the source for Justin and Athenagoras because they were NOT even used by him to promote the Canon.

We know how manipulated sources look by examining "Against Heresies" and "Against Marcion"

It is a piece of cake. Manipulated sources ALWAYS mention either at least one of the Four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles or the Pauline writings.

The sources that MATCH the Canon are all bogus.

The writings of Justin Martyr and Athenagoras do NOT Match the Canon. They contradict the Canon.

GakuseiDon · 04-24-2012, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Theophilus of Antioch takes a similar stance of attacking the pagan gods in a defense of his own Christian beliefs. IIRC, Rodney Stark, in some of his writings hypothesizes that belief in pagan gods was in decline throughout the Roman Empire, perhaps leading to a vacuum which Christianity subsequently filled. Like Justin and Athenagoras, Theophilus begins his plea by claiming that being a Christian is not an offense,

. . . followed by an attack against the pagan gods.

I haven't read Stark on this, but I think it was traditional beliefs that were in decline, involving traditional practices like sacrifices, augeries, etc. Pliny the Younger writes in his letter about Christians that:

It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found.

But the mystery religions were on the rise, of which one was Christianity. I don't see Second Century Christianity being the same as the First Century. First Century Christianity grew from Hellenised Jewish beliefs. Second Century Christianity had been recreated to conform to the leading philosophies of the times.

To me, it is similar to today: traditional forms of worship are declining, but New Agey style beliefs are on the increase. Back then, all religious beliefs were colored by the 'Platonism'; today they are colored by 'Scientism'. I believe that we are on the cusp of the time of the New God, one that is perfectly in tune of the zeitgeist.

aa5874 · 04-24-2012, 10:11 PM

It is EXTREMELY easy to Identify manipulated apologetic sources. I have deciphered the pattern of manipulation.

Just look for sources that mention any of the named Canonised Gospel, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters.

When one examines Church History it will be noticed that of all the supposed 2nd century sources that Eusebius used "Against Heresies" as a cooroborative source for the four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters.

Athenagoras is NOT mentioned in Church History and Justin Martyr is basically acknowledged as a Christian writer.

In Church History attributed to Eusebius it is NOT claimed that Justin had any of the named Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters.

arnoldo · 04-25-2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

IIRC, Rodney Stark, in some of his writings hypothesizes that belief in pagan gods was in decline throughout the Roman Empire, perhaps leading to a vacuum which Christianity subsequently filled.

The coins of the Roman Emperors tell a different story. There is continuous sponsorship of the pagan gods on their coins from Julius Caesar to Diocletian which is truncated with the rise of the Christian emperors. See the extract below. Additionally an examination of the monumental evidence suggests the same thing - temples and shrines and sponsorship of the pagan gods was alive under the Emperor Diocletian. Constantine OTOH was the destroyer of these traditions.

The decline of worship of the pagan gods was not gradual but sudden and unexpected. The vacuum of their worship was reinforced by Constantine's prohibition of sacrifice and temple business, a prohibition which was, at least in the major cities (Rome, Alexandria, New Rome, Ephesus, Antioch, etc), enforced by the imperial troops.

Coins of the Emperors

054 CE to 324 CE -- COINAGE of the Roman Emperors

SOURCE: Asclepius: The God of Medicine - By Gerald D. Hart: (p.177)

Indicates that the forty six of the Roman emperor for the period of almost three centuries depicted on their minted coins the figure of Asclepius or Salus. This represents a fairly extensive and persistent tradition. Notably the practice ceases in the year 324 CE, at which time the military supremacist Constantine secured the entire Roman empire as his own.

FWIW, roman coins may also indicate that Constantine issued coins dedicated to “Soli Invicto Comiti.” However, the point can be made that these coins were minted before Constantine’s conversion. Wiki states the coin pictured below is circa 315 A.D.

Regarding the decline of paganism, Stark links it to a decline of temple donations (pg. 124 of Discovering God: The Origins of the Great Religions and the Evolution of Belief (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

. . . Perhaps the most convincing proof of how greatly Roman temples depended upon private support can be seen in the results of the widely known collapse of temple donations that began in the late third century, long before the conversion of Constantine. Suddenly, in about 270 CE, inscriptions proclaiming private gifts to various temples, “wither away within a generation.”. . Lacking donation, the temples began to deteriorate rapidly. Not only literary, but archaeological evidence confirms the decay of the temples from that time on; “roofs fallen in, votaries departed, idols missing, the whole sanctuary tumble-down.”

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04-23-2012, 08:13 PM	#14
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Theophilus was defending WHICH Christian beliefs??!

04-24-2012, 10:11 PM	#19
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	It is EXTREMELY easy to Identify manipulated apologetic sources. I have deciphered the pattern of manipulation. Just look for sources that mention any of the named Canonised Gospel, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters. When one examines Church History it will be noticed that of all the supposed 2nd century sources that Eusebius used "Against Heresies" as a cooroborative source for the four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters. Athenagoras is NOT mentioned in Church History and Justin Martyr is basically acknowledged as a Christian writer. In Church History attributed to Eusebius it is NOT claimed that Justin had any of the named Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters.

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