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Old 01-05-2013, 02:28 AM   #1
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Default Hoffmann: The Historically Inconvenient Jesus

Hoffmann looks to be going after the theory, upheld by some mythicists, that the gospel crucified JC is a historicizing of a Pauline cosmic crucified JC. About time, methinks, that the JC historicists point out the holes in this theory. Perhaps then such mythicists will go back to the drawing board and attempt to uphold their ahistoricist gospel JC position with more rational arguments.

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Mythtics however are fond of pointing to the “assured” result of Paul’s literary priority over the gospels. Repeatedly they return to the Christ-myth notion that a heavenly man was fleshed out as an historical figure.

http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com...venient-jesus/
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:22 AM   #2
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Doherty on gMark's JC figure: "He brought the latter’s heavenly Messiah to earth".

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We can regard the Gospel of Mark as essentially an allegory, a symbolic story: first of all, representing the Kingdom-preaching movement itself, with the figure of Jesus of Nazareth building on that invented Q founder and symbolizing the teaching, miracle-working, and prophesying missionaries of the sect. As in allegory generally, such a representative figure renders the thing being symbolized more understandable, it simplifies the lines of what may be a more complex subject, and better enables the author to impart his spiritual truths and lessons.

In addition to this, the author of the Gospel of Mark added another dimension, based on the Pauline type of Christ cult. He brought the latter’s heavenly Messiah to earth, identifying him with the Q preaching founder, and symbolizing his heavenly atonement sacrifice in terms of an entirely fictional crucifixion and resurrection in Jerusalem.

http://montreal2010.org/proc/long/do...l_long_en.html
And yet, Doherty also maintains that gMark got his crucified gospel JC from scripture and that this figure "cannot be firmly shown to be based on the Pauline Christ".

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Where did the crucified Jesus come from, if not from Q which had no crucifixion story? Simple. He came from scripture.......Even the death and rising dimension of the Gospel Jesus, which Mark added to the Q Jesus, cannot be firmly shown to be based on the Pauline Christ

here
gMark did not need the Pauline cosmic crucified JC. All he needed was scripture for his gospel crucified JC.

This historicizing theory, upheld by some mythicists, that the Pauline cosmic crucified JC has become historicized as the gospel crucified JC, cannot be supported either by the Pauline epistles or the gospel story. There are holes in this theory - as is evidenced by Doherty's own contradictory statements above.

my bolding
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:45 AM   #3
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Mary Helena, have you looked at John Dominic Crossan's view of the scripture-historicization process in The Cross That Spoke?
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:57 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Tenorikuma View Post
Mary Helena, have you looked at John Dominic Crossan's view of the scripture-historicization process in The Cross That Spoke?
No.

Is there something in it that could be of interest to the OP re Hoffmann and the claim, by some mythicists, that a Pauline cosmic crucified JC was historicized as the gospel crucified JC?

Scripture-Historicized? That type of argument will not work with Hoffmann. The title of his article is: The Historically Inconvenient Jesus. I think Hoffmann will focus on history first and foremost. Scripture first and foremost is open to accusations of interpretation. One has to work from a sure base. And in the case of the HJ/MJ debate that base has to be Jewish history. Sure, we don't know yet what Hoffmann is going to present in his argument - but, methinks, he will aim to bypass scriptural interpretations as his base.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:02 AM   #5
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Sure, we don't know yet what Hoffmann is going to present in his argument - but, methinks, he will aim to bypass scriptural interpretations as his base.
I am curious to see what he comes up with when he finally gets down to brass tacks. It is hard to see how anyone can be the "historical Jesus" if he is not the Jesus of the Gospels in some way.

It still looks like he's preparing to make a case for Brian of Nazareth.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:22 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Tenorikuma View Post
Quote:
Sure, we don't know yet what Hoffmann is going to present in his argument - but, methinks, he will aim to bypass scriptural interpretations as his base.
I am curious to see what he comes up with when he finally gets down to brass tacks. It is hard to see how anyone can be the "historical Jesus" if he is not the Jesus of the Gospels in some way.

It still looks like he's preparing to make a case for Brian of Nazareth.
Probably just an argument from plausibility for the historical JC.

That's not the problem - Hoffmann is not going to be able to do anything more than arguments re plausibility. The bigger problem, for those mythicists who uphold the theory of a Pauline cosmic crucified JC being historicized as the gospel crucified JC, is that if Hoffmann goes after this particular mythicist theory - it's going to be found to be wanting....

A bit like the historicists argument in reverse. The ahistoricists/mythicists can pick holes in the historicists argument. Hoffmann, if he is wise, will not be trying to prove a historical JC - he will more likely concentrate on the weak points of this particular mythicist argument.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:27 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryhelena View Post
Hoffmann looks to be going after the theory, upheld by some mythicists, that the gospel crucified JC is a historicizing of a Pauline cosmic crucified JC. About time, methinks, that the JC historicists point out the holes in this theory. Perhaps then such mythicists will go back to the drawing board and attempt to uphold their ahistoricist gospel JC position with more rational arguments.

Quote:
Mythtics however are fond of pointing to the “assured” result of Paul’s literary priority over the gospels. Repeatedly they return to the Christ-myth notion that a heavenly man was fleshed out as an historical figure.

http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com...venient-jesus/
Again, Hoffmann confirms that the HJ of Nazareth argument is extremely weak.

There is virtually NO credible history of Jesus of Nazareth.

http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com...venient-jesus/

Quote:
....I don’t know too many New Testament scholars who would argue that the gospels are good history, and some (me among them) who would say that for the most part the gospels are totally useless as history....
Hoffman fails to understand that the Gospels are totally useful as Mythology and it is precisely why it is virtually 100% myth from conception to ascension.

From the author of gMark to the author of "Church History" and beyond, it was proclaimed Publicly to Emperors of Rome, like Hadrian, Antoninus, Verus and Constantine that Jesus was Born of a Ghost and a Virgin.

For hundreds of years, even today, the Jesus cult ARGUED that Jesus was actually born of a Ghost and there is NO evidence at all that any Jesus cult writer wrote that they personally SAW Jesus ALIVE.

There is NO corroborative evidence in the ENTIRE history of mankind for Jesus of Nazareth.

The historical Jesus of Nazaret is a modern fiction derived from admitted "USELESS sources".

Quote:
....for the most part the gospels are totally useless as history....
http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com...venient-jesus/

Hoffman seem incapable of understanding that Mythology is for the most part totally useless as history.

The Gospels are Precisely Myth Fables.

From the very start Hoffman will have to INVENT his own fiction story about his Jesus.

Effectively, Hoffman's Historical Jesus is a Myth--a character derived from Useless sources.

Hoffman's Jesus is a Jesus of his own Faith.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:48 AM   #8
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"Mythtics" ???
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:52 AM   #9
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Quote:
This historicizing theory, upheld by some mythicists, that the Pauline cosmic crucified JC has become historicized as the gospel crucified JC, cannot be supported either by the Pauline epistles or the gospel story. There are holes in this theory - as is evidenced by Doherty's own contradictory statements above.
If only there were actual contradictions between the two statements, you might even have a case. But there are not. One reference is to a cult similar to the Pauline Christ cult, the other denies that it can be shown that the Markan Jesus figure is created out of the Pauline Christ. I think Earl is wrong in the second claim, but your position that he's contradicting himself is incorrect.

Vorkosigan
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorkosigan View Post
Quote:
This historicizing theory, upheld by some mythicists, that the Pauline cosmic crucified JC has become historicized as the gospel crucified JC, cannot be supported either by the Pauline epistles or the gospel story. There are holes in this theory - as is evidenced by Doherty's own contradictory statements above.
If only there were actual contradictions between the two statements, you might even have a case. But there are not. One reference is to a cult similar to the Pauline Christ cult, the other denies that it can be shown that the Markan Jesus figure is created out of the Pauline Christ. I think Earl is wrong in the second claim, but your position that he's contradicting himself is incorrect.

Vorkosigan
Here are the two statements by Doherty:

Statement #1

Quote:
Where did the crucified Jesus come from, if not from Q which had no crucifixion story? Simple. He came from scripture.......Even the death and rising dimension of the Gospel Jesus, which Mark added to the Q Jesus, cannot be firmly shown to be based on the Pauline Christ

here
The crucified Jesus came from scripture. Mark adding this death and rising dimension. This Markan death and rising dimension cannot be firmly shown to be based on the Pauline Christ.

Statement #2

Quote:
We can regard the Gospel of Mark as essentially an allegory, a symbolic story: first of all, representing the Kingdom-preaching movement itself, with the figure of Jesus of Nazareth building on that invented Q founder and symbolizing the teaching, miracle-working, and prophesying missionaries of the sect. As in allegory generally, such a representative figure renders the thing being symbolized more understandable, it simplifies the lines of what may be a more complex subject, and better enables the author to impart his spiritual truths and lessons.

In addition to this, the author of the Gospel of Mark added another dimension, based on the Pauline type of Christ cult. He brought the latter’s heavenly Messiah to earth, identifying him with the Q preaching founder, and symbolizing his heavenly atonement sacrifice in terms of an entirely fictional crucifixion and resurrection in Jerusalem.

http://montreal2010.org/proc/long/do...l_long_en.html
Mark added another dimension based on the Pauline Christ. He brought this heavenly Messiah to earth.

On one hand Doherty says that the Markan JC cannot be firmly shown to be based on the Pauline Christ. On the other hand Doherty says that Mark brought down the Pauline heavenly Messiah to earth.

So? Did Mark or did not Mark bring down the Pauline Messiah Christ to Earth - or did he not base his dying and rising gospel JC on the Pauline Christ? To uphold both of these positions is to uphold a contradiction.

my bolding
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