Gamera

[QUOTE=Clarice O'C]You've simply begged the question: how do we know what an author intended. The answer is we don't. All we know is the text in front of us, which means something to us.

We can try, but its a fiction. All we have is a text, not an author's mind. So we should be upfront about it and not naive. Interpreting texts is about interpreting texts, not reading dead people's minds.

No, we really can't. We can only read texts and interprete them. If you want to interpret the text as an author's intent, that's your business. But it's still an interpretation of a text.

Gamera

Because most hoaxes are exposed and I'm unaware of any hoax that has lasted 2000 years. Perhaps I see into the future and perhaps you have secret knowledge of hoaxes the rest of us our unaware of.

Gamera

And my point is by what standard. I bet you "beleive" in the historicity of Socrates, and yet the ms evidence for Socrates' historicity is about the same quality of that supporting Jesus. (indeed number of mss evidencing Socrates is much smaller than those supporting Jesus's existence, and the historicity of those who wrote those mss is no more certain than that of Luke, John, etc.)

So the real question is why are you inconsistent?

Dargo

Actually, during the late 70's several high ranking members of the COS were sent to prison for tampering with US government records. Hubbard's own wife was one of those convicted. Althought the COS denies it to this day, it is believed that they were acting under L. Ron Hubbard's orders. However, not one of these people was willing to rat out their great leader to get an immunity deal. I guess that proves Scientology is true. No one would go to prison to protect a charlatan would they?

For that matter, how do you know that no early Christian leader made money off of religion? Plenty of Christians since then have succesfully used the gospel for personel gain.

aa5874

Are you not aware of the most celebrated hoaxes, the Creation in Genesis, the drowning of almost the whole population, the tower of Babel story and the plagues of Egypt?
Judaism claims Christianity is heresy, how long will that hoax last?

Gamera

Yeah, but they kept making money. And besides a Roman prison is quite different than an American prison. And then there is all the feeding to the lions business, which I suspect would dissuade a lot of scientologists.

Gamera

I'm aware you're positing your assumption that it is a hoax as evidence that it is a hoax, which is poor logic and unpersuasive to boot.

aa5874

Socrates did not offer eternal life in heaven, nor damnation in eternal torment. Socrates did not ascend into heaven directly from earth, defying gravity. Socrates is not comparable to Jesus in anyway. Even if Socrates was not a real person, the writings purported to be his can be taken for what its worth, however if Jesus is not real, then we have a massive fraud on our hands. That catostrophy is evident.

Clarice O'C

And so when I read what you write I can't know what you are intending to say? I shouldn't try to understand what you mean? I should project my own meaning on what you're saying?

Where do you think your writing comes from? Not your foot.

We do interpret what the author wrote but we could be wrong. And so we have to try to get at what the author means/meant and intends/intended to say.

gregor

ok - then what did Bishop Cyril, the first to issue the Catholic edict on what was the canon think by excluding the Revelations of John. If Athanasius came 15 years later and included it, he must be wrong.