Malachi151

How many of you are excited about this? I think its really fascinating and I can't wait for the new translations.

For those that don't know about this see:

http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_153230725.html

Here is what I have been able to piece together, and what I think might be in the new translations.

There is a hymn of Orphius that goes like this:

http://classics.mit.edu/Porphyry/images.html

The oldest complete copy of this comes from the 2nd century writer Porphyry, who says that it is an ancient hymn. What we have not been sure of, however, is if this really is as old as he says it is. Many have assumed that this was written after Christianity and copied from Christian themes because so much of it parallels Christian concepts.

That's where the Derveni Papyrus comes in.

Here is one lines that has already been found in the Derveni Papyrus:

http://persephones.250free.com/derveni-trans.html

As you can see, this matches the hymn quoted by Porphyry, leading to the speculation that the Orphic hymn quoted by Porphyry may really be very ancient, and of course pre-Christian.

The excitement over the newly revealed text is that it may validate the rest of the hymn, and if so, it will grealty alter the scholarly view of the influences on Christianity.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science...ent.scroll.ap/

And, BTW, yes, the Derveni Papyrus is older than the oldest scrap of Old Testament text. The oldest scrap of OT texts is from like the 2nd century BCE, whereas the Derveni Papyrus is from the 4th or 5th BCE.

mountainman

I agree it is a fascinating development and am optimistic that the
future years will see other manuscripts turn up and be analysed
and dated in a scientific manner. One of the articles mentioned
other material exists already in museums, not yet identified for
the process described in these articles.

Who really knows what may tomorrow appear?
And how it will fit into existing theories of history.



Thanks for the references.



Pete Brown

Boro Nut

Not true. I actually own the oldest known scrap, thanks to ebay. It comprises approx 5 x 7mm of the extreme top left hand corner of page 47, so unfortunately lacks any writing.

It's been dated to at least the 15th century BCE, which is why it's entirely fossilied, rather like a flake of rock.

Actualy it's a lot like a flake of rock, but come on, one could hardly expect a random flake of rock to exactly match the shape of the rest of the missing page 47 could you? You weren't in when I popped round to show you so I left it in your back garden. Check it out.

Boro Nut

gregor

Boro
And I think we can extrapolate that at one time it contained a verbatim text of the entirety of the Gospel of John - in fact, probably all of the four gospels.

Roger Pearse

I have some notes online on the Derveni papyrus here. It is incredible to reflect that this find from 1962 has yet to receive official publication, even now.

I'm unclear why the text is supposed to be monotheistic. I don't see that we can infer this from Julian the Apostate, even if it is a quotation, since he himself was reinventing paganism in a curious form in order to rival Christianity at a much later period.

The Derveni text seems to be orphic. But it is badly damaged and it is not quite certain that this is so. It also includes material from Heraclitus that makes it clear that two previously separate fragments should in fact be read together.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Toto

It appears from your first link that it has taken an advance in technology to be able to decipher much of the papyrus.

gstafleu

I was wondering about that.
That seems to be monocreationistic, if that's a word. It leaves open the possibility for other gods.

And then we have:
So Zeus, the creator, was the sone of Kronos? If that's supposed to mirror something Christian, then God was the sone of...? Wel, we do of course have Jesus, who was both God and the son of God, so I suppose anything is possible.

Roger Pearse

Note that this relies on the idea that Porphyry is quoting exactly an earlier text, since the Derveni papyrus itself contains no such words.

All the best,

Roger Pearse