avi

1. Jewish Christianity Reconsidered (or via: amazon.co.uk), edited by Matt Jackson McCabe, Fortress Press, 2007, Minneapolis, page 85:
2. Ancient Judaism and Christian Origins (or via: amazon.co.uk) by George W.E. Nickelsburg, Fortress Press, 2003, Minneapolis, page 183:
3. Judaism in the Beginnings of Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Jacob Neusner, Fortress Press, 1984, Philadelphia
Hmm. northeast of Lake Galilee, gosh, sounds a lot like Dura Europos' location--sort of midway between Babylon and Palestine, right?


avi

avi

Is that what you think about the oft quoted phrase: "seed of David"? The former King of the Jews was only a symbol, not a biological ancestor of Jesus? I am not asking what YOU believe, but what you think the authors of the New Testament were teaching?

I disagree with your analysis. I think your interpretation is quite brilliant, in fact, and not at all wrong. I just don't picture a bunch of illiterate shepherds, farmers, and neer do well's understanding such intricate concepts. Maybe I underestimate the brilliance of those sitting around the campfire, watching out for wolves and thieves, listening to various stories. Your thesis sounds more like something that could have been discussed by a group of scholars sitting around a cocktail table at some conference.....

Maybe that's exactly what the "christians" living in Dura Europos were thinking: Yeah, we are like tiny David, against the huge Persian Army. But, if we overcome them, then we can attain heaven, because there is a scene of agrarian tranquility painted above our forthcoming joust with the Persians. That scene represents Heaven. Although, come to think of it, even if we don't overcome the Persian army tomorrow, we are still going to die, defending the city, for we are outnumbered 100:1.

Does spin's interpretation of D&G imply that failure to conquer the Persian army, condemns the defenders of Dura Europos to eternal damnation? Can they only attain the pearly gates if the military conquest by the Persians is defeated, as was Goliath?

You have not addressed my fundamental point: The "house-church" at Dura Europos was built more than a century prior to its eventual burial in preparation for the unsuccessful defense of the city against the siege by the Persian Army. During that century, why couldn't multiple people have occupied the dwelling, using it for different purposes, and with different ideologies governing their inspiration to paint? Why couldn't D&G represent a painting originally inspired simply to pay homage to one of Judaism's famous stories? Do you mean to imply, spin, that Jews themselves, do not represent David and Goliath, in artistic endeavors? Does the religion itself forbid this artistic pursuit? Why couldn't the "christian" newcomers to the house, if indeed they were "christian", have retained the former decorations, and added some of their own? Why must all of the frescoes be examined as if created within the same short temporal span?

This implies that you have read the reports closely: can you share with us their conclusions, and the method used to obtain that conclusion? "About what is said", i.e. written, how do we, today, retain confidence in the analysis of the excavators of Dura Europos? Did they perform spectroscopic analysis of the paint?

avi

spin

Context. Use it.

My comment wasn't about spectroscopic analysis. It was about you showing you haven't read the literature. I thought you had access to Hopkins.


spin

mountainman

We may expect Judaism at Dura, like at many other places, to be heavily altered by Persian and Hellenistic influences.
In addition to the material furnished by avi, we may add the possible influence of Manichaeanism at that time 3rd century.
The writings of the Manichaeans reveal Mani conducted healings and was surrounded by apostles.

An example of an important advocate of the symbiosis of Jewish theology and Hellenistic thought is Philo.
Philo does not once mention anything to do with "christianity".
The "Good Shepherd" related to Hermes further associates Hellenistic influence.
The "Healing Motifs" of the Greeks showed the healing god Asclepius who was represented by "physician priests" and supported by "therapeutae" (assistants) for the epoch from 500 BCE to 500 CE. We dont need a new testament text to find a healing.

There are many other possible explanations for the evidence.



There are many possible answers which could just as validly explain the evidence in our possession.
I have provides a few sample answers above. Avi has listed a few references to Judaism.
Regional differences within Judaism would no doubt be more pronounced at the border of the Roman and Persian empires.
I would be interested to see evidence of artwork from Persian and Manichaean Judaism from the 3rd century CE,
before I decided that the only possible alternative involved murals of New Testament scenes.

The answer is that the question should remain OPEN.

I am highly skeptical that anyone needs to buy the story of a christian "house-church" in Dura.
We have no evidence otherwise of 1st, 2nd or 3rd century christian churches at Dura, or for that matter at Rome or Alexandria or anywhere in the empire. We have no evidence otherwise of 1st, 2nd or 3rd century christian church-houses at Dura, or for that matter at Rome or Alexandria or anywhere in the empire. And we have no evidence otherwise of 1st, 2nd or 3rd century christian house-churches anywhere in the empire except according to Yale Divinity College, at their "PACKAGED UP" and "RESTORED" deal at Dura.

I am skeptical that Yale has unearthed the presence of "christians" in 3rd century Dura-Europos.

The answer is that, like judges examining the evidence, we can say that the claim to its being CERTAINLY christian is ... "Not proven" ....

Toto

You can see what Jewish art of the time looked like in the synagogue at Dura Europa.You are not engaged in skepticism, but in pseudo-skepticism. You have decided that Christianity did not exist in the third century, so you dismiss the evidence.

mountainman

So the arguments above are pseudo-skeptical?
And for this reason you choose to avoid them.
Very convenient.

I have examined the evidence, and found it is insufficient to support any certainty that we are dealing with "Christians" at Dura. You and spin might like to trade in the certainties of this evidence, but I maintain my right to be highly skeptical of it, for the reasons I have supplied here and elsewhere.

an index of fraud concerning "christian" history by century

How many citations have been put forward, century by century, as being "certainly Early Christian"? Were they?
How many of these are still out there as "evidence" discussed by New Testament Archaeologists?
How many valid citations to "Early Christianity" are there besides this "Dura" evidence?

FA.
And I am skeptical of it.

Toto

What arguments have not been addressed?

avi

Hi Toto!
umm, how about answering my reply to your question of which alternatives to orthodox christianity existed in the third century, alternatives which could well have superimposed a Jewish heritage onto a schismatic stage.....


I offered three references. Are they inadequate? Do they fail to address your question? Do those references fail to identify competitor religions, other than orthodox, trinitarian Christianity, whose believers could have been occupants of the "house church" of Dura Europos?

avi

Toto

Your first reference was to Ebionites and the Nazarenes. I would consider these groups Christians. How else do you classify them?

Then you say that "early Christianity arose in a wing of apocalyptic Judaism that was also inhabited by later Enochic Judaism, John the Baptist, and the Qumran community." I don't see a competitor religion here, unless you think that this house church was a different sect of Judaism that was not Christianity. But we don't see John the Bpatist or other prophets in the murals.

Then you mention the Bathyrans, Babylonian Jewish immigrants - but as far as I can see, not a separate religion, and they seem to have fallen out of influence before the time of this house church.

So we are left with Christians, or some unknown lost sect of Judaism that used themes virtually identical to Christians.

mountainman

Avi may be arguing that we are left with Christians, or some unknown lost sect of Judaism that shared themes virtually identical to those the Christians are conjectured to have used, and that the latter likelihood is far more possible.