avi

Yup, two possibilities:
a. fraud
b. legitimate travel, in ancient times, between Europe and North America.

We know that the Vikings traveled in small craft past Iceland, then past Greenland (which they had colonized, 1000 years ago), and then into NewFoundland. There are stone markers scattered about Canada, indicating exploration by the Vikings.

The question then arises, whether or not people two and three thousand years ago, could have crossed by boat from the Canary Islands to Brazil?

I think the answer lies in genetic studies, maternal mitochondrial DNA. Once someone makes a concerted attempt to study the demographics, seriously, then, we may also be able to account for the Peruvian petroglyphs and Nazca lines. (air travel in ancient times).

What concerns me, about this "hoax", if it is one, and I believe it probably is a fraud, is that many, or perhaps, MOST of the forum members accept as legitimate the archaeological dig at Dura Europos, without considering the EVEN MORE likely probability (compared with this "hebrew" black stone of the crazy Mormons) of fraud and forgery at the Dura Europos site. I am astonished by the gullibility of forum members, many of them, obviously very brilliant folks, who simply accept as legitimate, the ostensible "discoveries" from that excavation, "...typical of late-19th century archaeological hoaxes." yes, I know, Dura Europos was excavated in the first three decades of the 20th century, not the 19th century....

Yes, the black stone could be genuine. Yes, the Hebrews could have traveled by boat or airplane to North America 2000 years +, ago, and yes, the findings at Dura Europos could be genuine.

I possess a relatively modest sized piece of hilly land, not really arable, but, lofty, with good ice and snow, at the top of the main peak, for those who enjoy skiing in the summer. The parcel is situated in a very convenient location, just 25 kilometers Southwest of Miami, Florida, USA. I am willing to sell it for a very modest profit....

avi

Toto

What is the problem with Dura Europos? It was within the Roman Empire, and contained buildings that would be expected there, with inscriptions in languages spoken at the time (viewing the entire site as a whole.)

There was no widespread forgery of 3rd century Christian artifacts. Most people do not consider the mere existence of Christianity in the 3rd century to be especially controversial or in need of archaeological proof.

Forgers prefer dramaticaly early relics, such as the first century pieces of the cross or relics of the saints. But a third century, plain, house church with a few murals?

avi

Thank you for your comments and questions. Both are very welcome.

Dura Europos excavation was undertaken during a decade, which we call, today, the "great depression". Financial hard times meant some sacrifice, some measures of economy. Dura Europos was in the Syrian Desert, a day's drive from any urban settlement, and entirely without food or arable land. Consequently, the site was abandoned by the European, Christian excavators for several months each year, due to inclement climate. During those several years of excavation, no one in authority was on site during those several months every year, of oppressive desert heat.

In a political climate quite different from that which we know today, there had been at Dura Europos, ample opportunity for foul play. When we think of 1929, our minds are absorbed with the crash of wall street. In Palestine, there was a very different concern: the Haganah, which from the perspective of the Palestinians, was a terrorist organization, that led to the murder of hundreds, if not thousands of poor peasants, with loss of their land, homes, and water supply, to the European invaders in 1929.

The disruption in Palestinian life, led to a huge exodus of displaced persons, living in camps, without proper food, clothing or shelter.

Many of these Arabic speaking, Islamic believing, Palestinians were employed to dig at Dura Europos.
How difficult would it have been, in 1931, during the "off season", to hire four of them, for one week, to dig, and implant, whatever had been carried to the site for reburial? How convenient that Yale University hauled away the "house church", and repainted it, before a proper inspection by independent, non-Christian, archaeologists could have confirmed the date of origin of the structure.

Yes, and Roman coins and weapons were found as well at Dura Europos. Unfortunately, in the principal Roman cities of that era, in Turkey, upstream on the same river, no similar "church" has yet been discovered. Are those same coins and Roman weapons commonly found in other archaeological excavations at sites of similar Roman colonial outposts in Syria and Turkey--for example, Palmyra, Antioch?

"Most people", among inhabitants of USA, believe in the divinity of JC. I am unaware of definite proof of christianity prior to Constantine. By proof, I mean unequivocally unforged documents written in the first three centuries, or sculptures, coins, tombs, etc. The significance of Dura Europos, in my mind at least, is that it "confirms" the existence of "christianity" prior to Constantine. Of course, the "house church" could also have been a Nazarene temple of worship, proximate as it was, to the Jewish synogogue, at a time in history, when the "christians" of that era, were supposedly at odds with the Jews.

It is the first evidence we have, so far as I am aware, of the existence of Christianity. As such, it is a remarkably important structure. How convenient was it, to have "discovered", buried there in Dura Europos, in the dirt, a copy of the Diatessaron.

Hmm. I didn't notice mention of discovery of a copy of Plato, or Aristotle, nor copies of Cicero, Virgil, or Plutarch, or any other writers of that era....

Does one have evidence of similarly well preserved, nearly two millenia old, painted murals from the desert excavations of central asia?

avi

Toto

My point was that the idea that Christianity started with Constantine is so bizarre, and was so outlandish in the 1930's, that no one would find any need to plant elaborate artifacts to try to disprove it.

There is nothing about Dura Europa that fits the pattern of known archaeological forgeries.

avi

To my way of thinking, planting a copy, real or forged, of the Diatessaron, is not "elaborate", it is trivial.

The only "planting" that had to be done, was to paint some murals on a wall, after digging it up. The synogogue had been discovered, folks went away, came back the next season, dug next to the synogogue, and voila: thar she blows. The first church--with murals on the walls that one would swear had just been painted, they looked so good....

Motive: hmm. yes, the notion that Christianity began only after Constantine, is a bit off the beaten track, however, what was front and center, in those days, was:;

HORNS please, and trumpets:;;

MONEY.

Cash was king. Then and now.

During a depression, something very bad happens to church revenues. Very bad.

Donations dry up. Donations disappear. However, an amazing discovery like this, unearthing the first church, the oldest extant evidence of third century Christianity, THAT is something to help all the various flavours of christianity raise money from their constituents.

The pattern of known archaeological forgeries is VERY BROAD, and certainly includes activities such as planting artifacts, and deliberate obfuscation or "enhancement" of discovered materials.

I am asking only for a more balanced, more critical inspection of the DATA from that dig. Maybe they really did happen upon the Diatessaron, unblemished, despite the rainfall in the preceding days and weeks, as the document was unearthed during one of the rare times of heavenly precipitation. Tears from the angels, perhaps....

Why do we observe, so readily the hoax of the black stones of the Mormons and the Muslims in Mecca, and yet, fail to inject a healthy dose of skepticism with regard to the "findings" at Dura Europos.

avi

driver8

I assume older than two millenia is acceptable?

Catalhoyuk

Toto

But they didn't appear to be freshly painted.

Do you know of anyone who has profited from the Dura Europos house church? Did any modern churches use it for fundraising? Are their pilgrimages to Dura Europos or to Yale?

But you have given me no reason to think that this archeaological find was faked, other than that it is inconvenient for your theory that there was no Christianity at the time.

Fakes follow a pattern. They generally relate to issues of the day, and often to nationalism. Someone finds the first bit of archaeology that can be tied to Jesus' family, and it has "James the brother of Jesus" - after a book was published in the US with the title "James the Brother of Jesus." That's where you suspect a fake.

avi

The Discovery of Dura-Europos (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Clark Hopkins, Yale University Press, 1979, chapter 7: The Paintings of the Christian Baptistery:
page 107:
"It was one of those chance finds, a fragment of parchment found two blocks away and on the other side of the Great Gate from the Christian building. How it got into the debris at that point remains a mystery, and how it happened to be preserved and then discovered is another."

page 92:
"Cumont had recalled in his historical summary the account of a monk, a recluse, who had inhabited the ruins of Dura in the ninth century, and naturally there was some discussion about ascribing the construction of the chapel to him.
....
In the middle of the century under Decius came the first universal and systematic persecution of Christians: 'to compel Christians to sacrifice to the old gods under whose aegis Rome has grown great'. The attack was renewed with increased ferocity under Valerian in 257-58. In the Decian persecution the great Origen, distinguished pupil of Clement of Alexandria, was tortured and died in Caesarea or Tyre; under the Valerian attack Cyprian was executed at Carthage.
How the Dura chapel had escaped unscathed we may review [in a later chapter]...In any case, it seems almost a miracle that the Dura meeting-house was preserved..." (my emphasis)."

avi

avi

Thanks for the link.

Yes, you are correct, and my position is also refuted by the paintings on the walls of the synagogue at Dura Europos.

In fact, Toto is correct, as usual, it is those paintings which are so clear, the "Christian" works are more obscure.

avi

Toto

There is more on Dura Europa here. The remains of the house church, a Mithraeum, and the much more spectacular and valuable synagogue were preserved because they were buried in rubble after a seige. The excavation was a joint Syrian-American venture, and the Syrians claimed the Synagoge and removed the wall murals to Damascus, where they are on display. The Americans got the house church and the Mythraeum as a sort of consolation prize and took them back to Yale, where they were badly preserved.

There is no indication that anyone profited from the house church murals, or made much of a point of their significance. You will find some online dispute over how "orthodox" these Christians were, from current Christians who are not quite sure about artwork in churches.

I think it is noteworthy that the murals do not include a crucifixion. This is consistent with the late 20th century idea that pre-Constantine Christianity was not centered around the crucifixion, and did not use the cross as its emblem. If you think that early 20th century Christians wanted to plant evidence there, why is there no cross?

There is just no reason to see this as planted evidence.