Freethought & Rationalism Archive

douglas · 02-25-2007, 07:34 PM

I'm confused about a couple details surrounding these ossuaries.

First, I understand an ossuary to be a box full of bones. It takes a certain amount of time for a body to decay so that only bones remain. Is it fair to assume that these bodies were placed somewhere during this decaying process, the bones were then placed in the box, and the box was moved to a family crypt. Is this the way it worked?

Secondly, would it be odd for Jesus and his family to have a tomb in Jerusalem when they were actually from Nazareth?

AtheosRiktØr489 · 02-25-2007, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

According to the NT, Jesus was not in a coffin, he was wrapped with linen. And in any event, haven't the shroud of Turin been found with the supposed image of Jesus?

The Shroud of Turin? That's only been debunked since 1988...

tjakey · 02-25-2007, 08:57 PM

Of course Cameron is correct; there was no resurrection. That is simply one part of the Christian mythology. Assuming there was a “real” Jesus, (a big assumption) then he was likely buried somewhere. (Unless he really tried that “walking on water” thing, in which case he was probably buried at sea.) But the odds of that particular tomb being the one of that particular individual, (again making the assumption he actually existed) are pretty small, after all this is a 2000 year old story. We lose entire cities, countries and cultures in a lot less then 2000 years, let alone one particular tomb. Still, it will be fun to watch the fundies twitch and drool over this movie, and I hope Cameron and his crew make a ton of money on it.

Toto · 02-25-2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAFH

You have citations of the above?

I know there was a big to do a few years back about an ossuary with the name James on it, but it was determined to be a fraud and I believe prosecution was sucessful.

I don't recall any recently found ossuaries attributed to a Jesus.

The prosecution of Oded Golan for forgery of the James Ossuary is just starting.

There had been a previous discovery of ossuaries with the names Mary, Jesus, Joseph, etc. There was a BBC special that speculated about whether this was THE Jesus and his family, but Christians pointed out (correctly) that these names were some of the most common at the time. It is this group of ossuaries that forms the basis of Tabor's book and his thesis that Jesus was in fact part of a dynasty.

ApostateAbe · 02-25-2007, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg

I disagree; it should be far more popular than it is. I am not an "atheist activist" by any means; I accept the JM thesis advanced by Earl Doherty simply because it fits the evidence and makes sense. It's by no means a "slam dunk" like evolution, but it's hardly nonsense, like these agenda-driven theories that claim Christianity was invented by Constantine.

I am not a person who jumps on outlandish theories because they suit my presumptions and biases, and I have rejected other JM hypotheses (as well as numerous HJ hypotheses) before I encountered Doherty's thesis.

Here's a suggestion; go to www.jesuspuzzle.org and just take the time to read it through. Don't just read the basic argument ... look the supplementary articles and other material as well. Then come back and tell me if you still think only an "atheist activist" with an anti-Christian agenda would find Doherty's case persuasive.

JesusPuzzle.org was also what led me to believe the Jesus-myth hypothesis some time ago, after I was disenchanted with the Acharya S proposition. I don't believe Doherty anymore, obviously. Other scholars who are less popularly-published and less outspoken have more evidence to back them up. I recommend Bart Ehrman's, "Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (or via: amazon.co.uk)." He claims to speak for the consensus of critical New Testament scholars. My case can be found in this thread.

Joan of Bark · 02-25-2007, 11:34 PM

I agree with RAFH -- I doubt any convincing evidence will ever be found. Anyway, it's way too soon to tell. The scholars will need years to come to any kind of reasoned consensus.

Godless Dave · 02-26-2007, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAFH

You have citations of the above?

I know there was a big to do a few years back about an ossuary with the name James on it, but it was determined to be a fraud and I believe prosecution was sucessful.

I don't recall any recently found ossuaries attributed to a Jesus.

The ossuary said "James the brother of Jesus". Many Christians continued to believe it was genuinely the ossuary of Jesus's brother James even after it had been found to be a fraud.

Ruhan · 02-26-2007, 03:08 AM

The DNA evidence thus far has concluded that Jesus was related to Jospeh and Mary but not to the Mary Magdelene character. This led Cameron to believe that they were married and that Judah was his son.

My problem with some of the comments on this board thus far is that some people are comparing to the Gospel narrative. I.e. he was buried in a cave, Joseph is from Nazareth etc.

If Tabor is correct, Jesus's life had very little incommon with the mythical story found in the Gospels.

I am not sure if they will ever conclusively prove this to be the tomb of Jesus and his family but it's definitely interesting to find a combination of these names in a tomb which is 2000 years old...

Face · 02-26-2007, 09:32 AM

Discovery Channel has a website up on the topic; there's a press conference on right now - the team is up there answering questions.

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence...99-502-ah-1024

Steven Avery · 02-26-2007, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The prosecution of Oded Golan for forgery of the James Ossuary is just starting.

Jim West keeps up on it.
http://drjimwest.wordpress.com/2007/...ry-oded-golan/
The Trial of the Century: Oded Golan

The BAR take is here
http://www.bib-arch.org/bswbOOossuary_02web.asp
http://www.bib-arch.org/bswbOOossuary_trial.asp
Update—Finds or Fakes? The Trial of Oded Golan

Probably those are two of the more complete sources,
and link to the Ha'aretz articles, sometimes.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

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02-25-2007, 07:34 PM	#21
douglas Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 701	I'm confused about a couple details surrounding these ossuaries. First, I understand an ossuary to be a box full of bones. It takes a certain amount of time for a body to decay so that only bones remain. Is it fair to assume that these bodies were placed somewhere during this decaying process, the bones were then placed in the box, and the box was moved to a family crypt. Is this the way it worked? Secondly, would it be odd for Jesus and his family to have a tomb in Jerusalem when they were actually from Nazareth?

02-25-2007, 08:57 PM	#23
tjakey Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 1,060	Of course Cameron is correct; there was no resurrection. That is simply one part of the Christian mythology. Assuming there was a “real” Jesus, (a big assumption) then he was likely buried somewhere. (Unless he really tried that “walking on water” thing, in which case he was probably buried at sea.) But the odds of that particular tomb being the one of that particular individual, (again making the assumption he actually existed) are pretty small, after all this is a 2000 year old story. We lose entire cities, countries and cultures in a lot less then 2000 years, let alone one particular tomb. Still, it will be fun to watch the fundies twitch and drool over this movie, and I hope Cameron and his crew make a ton of money on it.

02-25-2007, 11:34 PM	#26
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	I agree with RAFH -- I doubt any convincing evidence will ever be found. Anyway, it's way too soon to tell. The scholars will need years to come to any kind of reasoned consensus.

02-26-2007, 03:08 AM	#28
Ruhan Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London Posts: 176	The DNA evidence thus far has concluded that Jesus was related to Jospeh and Mary but not to the Mary Magdelene character. This led Cameron to believe that they were married and that Judah was his son. My problem with some of the comments on this board thus far is that some people are comparing to the Gospel narrative. I.e. he was buried in a cave, Joseph is from Nazareth etc. If Tabor is correct, Jesus's life had very little incommon with the mythical story found in the Gospels. I am not sure if they will ever conclusively prove this to be the tomb of Jesus and his family but it's definitely interesting to find a combination of these names in a tomb which is 2000 years old...

02-26-2007, 09:32 AM	#29
Face Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 543	Discovery Channel has a website up on the topic; there's a press conference on right now - the team is up there answering questions. http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence...99-502-ah-1024

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