quoting

Lucian of Samosta

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the comtempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property." Lucian also reported that the Christians had "sacred writings" which were frequently read. When something affected them, "they spare no trouble, no expense."

Lucian, "The Passing of Peregrinus" 12, 13. Loeb Classical Library. English translation by A. M. Harmon (London: William Heinemann, Ltd.; Cambridge, mass.: Harvard University Press, 1936), pp. 13, 15.


Celsus (150 C.E.)

“First, however, I must deal with the matter of Jesus, the so-called savior, who not long ago taught new doctrines and was thought to be a son of God. This savior, I shall attempt to show, deceived many and caused them to accept a form of belief harmful to the well-being of mankind. Taking its root in the lower classes, the religion continues to spread among the vulgar: nay, one can even say it spreads because of its vulgarity and the illiteracy of its adherents. And while there are a few moderate, reasonable, and intelligent people who interpret its beliefs allegorically, yet it thrives in its purer form among the ignorant.”


( Celsus, "True Discourse," Celsus, on the True Doctrine: A Discourse Against the Christians, R. Joseph Hoffmann, ed., New York: Oxford University Press, 1987, p. 57.)


Julius Africanus (221 AD), on Thallus, who wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean around 52 AD, regarding the darkness that covered the land during Jesus's crucifixion


Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away the darkness as an eclipse of the sun--unreasonably, as it seems to me." [A solar eclipse could not take place during a full moon, as was the case during Passover season.]



Emporer Hadrian (117-138 AD), in a letter to Minucius Fundanus, the Asian proconsul

"I do not wish, therefore, that the matter should be passed by without examination, so that these men may neither be harassed, nor opportunity of malicious proceedings be offered to informers. If, therefore, the provincials can clearly evince their charges against the Christians, so as to answer before the tribunal, let them pursue this course only, but not by mere petitions, and mere outcries against the Christians. For it is far more proper, if anyone would bring an accusation, that you should examine it." Hadrian further explained that if Christians were found guilty they should be judged "according to the heinousness of the crime." If the accusers were only slandering the believers, then those who inaccurately made the charges were to be punished.

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History IV:IX)


Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian (117-138 AD)


Suetonius (A.D. 75-160) considered Christ as a Roman insurgent who stirred up seditions under the reign of Claudius (AD 41-54).


"Because the Jews of Rome caused continous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from the city."

"After the great fire at Rome [during Nero's reign] . . . Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief."


Caesar Hadrian

Hadrian, Imperator Caesar Trainus, (AD 76-138), was considered a man of culture and the arts. It appears he preferred peace rather than war. The following quote comes from a letter sent to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia, about how to treat Christians.

I do not wish, therefore, that the matter should be ignored without examination, so that these men may not be harassed, nor an opportunity given for malicious proceedings to be offered to informers. If, therefore, the provincials can clearly show their charges against these Christians, so as to answer before the tribunal, let them pursue this course only, but not just petitions, and mere outcries against Christians. For it is more fitting, if any one brings an accusation, that you should examine it. - Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, IV



Ceasar Trajan

Emperor Trajan (AD 53 - 117), Imperator Caesar Divi Nervae Filius Nerva Traianus, was one of the most famous Roman emperors of all time. His reputation as a successful military strategist is demonstrated by his military exploits which expanded the Roman boundaries to the Persian Gulf. The quote below is a reply to Pliny, who had asked for directions in how to treat the Christians.


The method you have used, my dear Pliny, in investigating the cases of those who are accused of being Christians is extremely proper. No search should be made for these people; when they are accused and found to be guilty they must be punished; with the restriction, however, that when the individual denies he is a Christian, and gives proof that he is not (that is, by adoring our gods) he shall be pardoned on the ground of repentance, even though he may have formerly incurred suspicion. Documents without the accuser's signature must not be admitted in evidence against anyone, since this introduces a very dangerous precedent, and is by no means consistent with the spirit of the age. - Pliny letters X, 97



Cornelius Tacitus

Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD) has been called the greatest historian on ancient Rome. He lived during the reign of several Roman emperors and was a Roman historian and a governor of Asia [Turkey] in AD 112. He wrote two major works:and the. The following is a quote from the Annals.

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontiu Pilat, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judae the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their cent and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. - Annals 1

Whats your take the historian accounts?

Peter Kirby

Great leaping gods! Please don't let this be all about proving something on the existence of Jesus...

Riverwind

quoting...I'm afraid you've presented nothing new to the forum.

Not that I disbelieve the quotes, but you'll have an easier time addressing one at a time if you want serious answers.

quoting

Really the one that sticks out to me is this one.

Julius Africanus (221 AD), on Thallus, who wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean around 52 AD, regarding the darkness that covered the land during Jesus's crucifixion


Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away the darkness as an eclipse of the sun--unreasonably, as it seems to me." [A solar eclipse could not take place during a full moon, as was the case during Passover season.]

Now their are no surviving documents of Thallus' work, so do you think he could have mentioned something like this?

mountainman

Eusebius, 4th century: See Lucian's other works.


Eusebius again, in the fourth century, after forging
fragments of "Against the Christians", containing the
fragments of Celsus, etc, etc, in the name of Porphyry,
and claiming as extant an anti-christian work of another
neopythagorean Hierocles, calumnifies the neopythagorean
author and sage of the first century, Apollonius of Tyana.


Eusebius, fourth century publication under bullneck.

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History IV:IX.
Gross forgery and fraudulent misrepresentation

Interpolation, Eusebius is hypothetical culprit.
See the analysis by Jay Raskin in his book.
Here is an extract outlining both the Tacitus
and the Suetonius Interpolation

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, IV.
Fraudulent misrepresentation of history.
There were no christians until Constantine.
Eusebius was paid to do a job on the empire.
He has succeeded quite well until now.


See above.

Interpolation, probably by Eusebius.
See reference above to Jay Raskin's analysis.


They are all simply little bits of the great fabrication
of the Galilaeans: a mass of forged texts and fraudulent
claims, tendered with a pseudo-history, to be associated
with the new and strange Roman religious order, dreamed
up by the supreme imperial mafia thug and malevolent despot
Constantine; regarded as one of the more eminent
"christian theologians of his time".

We have no archeological evidence for anything
"christian" in the pre-Nicene epoch. If you are
used to having faith, then have faith in Eusebius.

Thousands of BC&H scholars do so daily.

So, do a background check on
Eusebius' Integrity as an Historian

It is only necessary to reflect for a moment
what a blank would be left in our knowledge
of this most important chapter in all human history,
if the narrative of Eusebius were blotted out,
and we shall appreciate the enormous debt
of gratitude which we owe to him.

The little light which glimmered over the earliest
history of Christianity in medieval times
came ultimately from Eusebius alone,
coloured and distorted in its passage
through various media.


-- J.B. Lightfoot, Eusebius of Caesarea, (article. pp. 324-5),
Dictionary of Christian Biography: Literature, Sects and Doctrines,
ed. by William Smith and Henry Wace, Vol II.

Toto

Read this and come back to discuss if you still have any questions:

Thallus: an analysis

Roger Pearse

The techniques of debunking are getting rather old, tho. The data remains where it always was, and the testimony of Thallus likewise.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

This book is not Celsus, but Mr Hoffmann's opinion as to what he might have said. I had occasion to check a few passages (here), and look up the reviews, and it was a bit dismal.

English translation of relevant portions of Syncellus.

About what we would expect for a marginal group during the first couple of centuries AD. Possibly more than we might expect, in some ways.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Amaleq13

True. It continues to worthless in establishing the reality of the eclipse described in the Gospels.