Metacrock

where do you get that idea? You dont know me, you know nothing about me. that's just slander

Metacrock

It's a typographical error. I meant "The GUY" not "the gay!"


can't you guys be gracious about people's handicaps? Dyslexia?

Yellum Notnef

I don't mean to pack this thread down into the dumpster any further than it already is but can someone explain to me how typing an "A" instead of a "U" has anything to do with dyslexia?

I'm not at all suggesting that metacrock said "gay" on purpose but the goddamn letters aren't even near each other on the keyboard. There are several dozen other examples of this in his posts and I can't figure out how the hell it's caused by dyslexia.

Looks more like furious spaz typing to me.

Yellum Notnef

I'm sad to say that I know much more about you than I ever cared to know. I've been reading this forum for years and this is like the tenth time I've seen you shown up here peddling the same nonsense with the same horrible attitude.

It's as if I have magical powers when ever you get here because I can always predict whats going to happen and how it's going to end.

<Sorry guys but sometimes the spectators need to throw a couple rotten tomatoes. I'm going back up to the cheap seats now.>

Anat

Bar Kokhva failed as a Messiah. Therefore he was false. So did Shabetai Tsvi, Yaakov Frank, Molkho and the Lubavitcher and dozens of others. Add Jesus to the list if you wish. Those followers of the Lubavitcher who still expect his 'second coming' are being ridiculed by other Orthodox Jews. A Jewish Messiah has one lifetime in which to accomplish his mission.

Steven Carr

So basically , if we want to know anything about the Messiah of Judaism, we should ask the representatives of Judaism?

And if they say that Jesus was not the Messiah of the Old Testament...?

Steven Carr

http://philologos.org/__eb-lat/book205.htm

Edersheim himself writes 'But the general conception which the Rabbis had formed of the Messiah, differed totally from what was presented by the Prophet of Nazareth.'

So, using Metacrock's criterion that we should bow to the judgement of Rabbis of what the Messiah would be like, Jesus was not the Messiah.

Steven Carr

I could post loads of stuff written by Christians saying that Jesus only appeared to be flesh, that he was an ordinary man before being chosen by God , that the Trinity is not in the Bible etc etc.

And metacrock would be forced to argue that sceptics should accept the views of the very representatives of Christianity, as being what the NT texts are really about.

You can always find a quote backing up any religious opinion you care to name. It means nothing.

Claiming something is a Messianic prophecy is easy.

As Metacrock's chosen man, Edershiem, says ' It is in this sense that we would understand the two sayings of the Talmud: 'All the prophets prophesied only of the days of the Messiah,' and 'The world was created only for the Messiah.'

So every prophesy in the Bible is a Messianic prophecy. The Talmud says so.

So we can conclude that Talmudic claims that something is a Messianic prophecy are pure junk, as the Talmud claims all prophecies are Messianic.



What Metacrock has to do is see where Isaiah uses the word 'Messiah' (or Anointed) to see where Isaiah is prophesying about the Messiah.

Steven Carr

Metacrock did say he gets hyper.

Apikorus

Noone can sensibly dispute that Judaism developed a messianic element, starting mainly in the late "Second Temple" period. An excellent source on Jewish messianic beliefs and their pluriform nature in the late centuries BCE is John Collins' "The Scepter and the Star".

While Isaiah has been used as a fifth gospel of sorts by Christians, the fact is that the Hebrew word "mashiach" (= "messiah") appears only once in the entire book, in 45:1, where it explicitly refers to King Cyrus of Persia. As to the identity of the "suffering servant of Yahweh," this will never be unambiguously resolved. Throughout deutero-Isaiah, however, there are some clear links between the description of Jacob/Israel in the prose sections, and the description of the servant in the four "servant poems" first identified by Duhm. (Larue's book, linked on this site, has a brief discussion of this.) Inasmuch as verse 41:8 explicitly identifies Jacob/Israel as Yahweh's servant, and the servant is never explicitly identified as anyone other than Jacob/Israel, I'd say that's got to be the leading candidate. Incidentally, note that trito-Isaiah picks up on this theme, but uses the plural (Heb. abadim = servantS), e.g. in 63:17, 65:8-9,13-14, 66:14. This reinforces the corporate identification of servant = Israel.

At any rate, Anat is quite correct to point out that the rabbis read the Hebrew Bible through their own hermeneutic lens -- one which often leads them to stray far from the plain sense of the text.

Steven Carr has hit the nail with his observation that the rabbis knew about Christian claims regarding Jesus, but they unanimously rejected them. (Doubtless Metacrock will drag out some convert, like his beloved Edersheim, but this is simply the exception that proves the rule.) I've raised this point with Metacrock myself, in the past. Apparently he either fails to apprehend it, or else chooses to ignore it.