Slojodan

We have proof that Jesus was not speaking the word of G-d when he came from Nazareth. It’s not because he claimed to be G-d when G-d said he was not the son of man in Numbers 23. It’s not because he said the end of the world would come in this generation and it didn’t happen. It’s not because he didn’t know the hour of his return, and it’s not because he didn’t match the messianic prophesies in the Old testament. The reason he is clearly a false prophet is because he violated the most important rule of all: Do not change the law.

Unlike a lot of critics, I’m not saying Jesus changed the law by trying to do away with the whole thing when he died for atonement. The “New Covenant� is another story I’m not even going to get into. I’m saying he changed the law in some minor parts while he was alive and speaking as a Rabbi. You can say the New Covenant happened when Jesus died, but before then, even Jesus said not a letter of the law would disappear before all is fulfilled.

On Mount Sinai, the Israelites were given the law in the form of the Torah. It was very specific in everything they needed to do to be on the right side of G-d. This included everything from dietary laws to business practices. The most important thing was that it was forever, and nothing could be added nor taken away from it.

Deut. 4:1-2– So now Israel, give heed to the stautes and ordinances I am teaching you to observe, so that you may live to enter and occupy the land that the Lord, the G-d of your ancestors is giving you. You must NEITHER ADD ANYTHING to what I command you NOR TAKE AWAY FROM IT, but keep the commandments the Lord your G-d with which I am charging you.

It says right there no alterations are allowed.

Here it is made very clear the law is forever-

Deut. 12.28– Be careful to obey all these words I command you today, so that it may go well with you and with your children after you FOREVER, because you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the Lord your G-d.

2 Samuel 23:5 --"Is not my house right with God? Has he not made with me an EVERLASTING covenant, arranged and secured in every part?

Psalm 105:8 He remembers his COVENANT FOREVER,
Now we should be clear that the law of the Torah is forever. A key part of the law was dietary restrictions. Jews were not allowed to eat pork, shellfish, or other scavengers. This was followed strictly. When Jesus came on to the scene however, he had different ideas.

Mark 7:19 “Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.� In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.�

Jesus just did away with dietary restrictions, saying all food is clean. So that is one change in the law Jesus made. He took away from it, proving already he was not a real prophet. There is another huge part of the law Jesus changed as well, which was the definition of adultery

Though Jews are very monogamous today, in biblical times, men had meny wives. King Solomon had hundreds of wives. Like it or not, adultery with a single woman was technically impossible according to the statutes of the law. Adultery meant sleeping with a married woman. Here is the quote defining adultery:

Leviticus 20:10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.�

Search through the Old Testament and you will never find an event of a man “cheating� on his wife, because it is not a sin in the Torah, as long as his other woman is not married. This is not a simple argument by silence. The torah law was extremely specific, even mentioning both sexes. (Saying “A man can’t lay with a beast. A woman can’t lay with a beast, etc.,�) Jesus however, had other ideas:

Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Here not only does Jesus make marrying a new woman a sin, but he makes marrying a divorced woman a sin. There is nothing in the law at all about marrying divorced women, or remarrying. G-d frowns on divorce in the book of Malachi, but he made provisions for it in Deut., which means it’s not a sin. Jesus made divorce equaling adultery, rendering it an extreme sin that violates one of the 10 commandments. Some apologists say Jesus “fufilled� the law instead of changing it, but whatever word you use for it, the law was obviously changed.

In conclusion, Jesus tried to change several laws of the everlasting mosaic covenant, clearly disqualifying himself from being a man of G-d. I look forward to your comments.

Absolute

The whole law is summed up in this.

-Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength.

-Love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the greatest law that exists. LOVE. That is what he came to fulfill so that we could become the righteousness of God.

Jesus is the Son of God. The blessed Messiah who sits at the right hand of God.

Calzaer

Funny, those aren't the laws God originally gave to the Jews. Maybe God doesn't know what "FOREVER" means?

Or, more likely, some other God was trying to muscle in on God's territory by getting rid of some of the nast food rules and exchanging them for strict adultary rules.

Vorkosigan

You skipped the part about parents in there....

Boro Nut

Mmmmm. You appear to be a wee bit short in the pork restrictions department.

Boro Nut

Chris Weimer

Um, where does God say this again? Oh wait, he doesn't.
:banghead:

Sensei Meela

Jesus' mission was "not to abolish, but to fulfill" the Law, the Torah. The terms "abolish" and "fulfill," however, are Rabbinic idioms meaning "misinterpret" and "interpret correctly," respectively; a Rabbi who abolished the law had misinterpreted it so badly that they had effectively done away with God's Torah, replacing it with a human law.

The Torah had been corrupted by the pharisees, "abolishers of the law" as Jesus called them, and he went on for several verses to correct them in the "you have heard them say..., but I am telling you..." fashion. Ergo, he was not trying to undo or replace or change the Law; he was trying to set the law straight -- trying to square the Law with the will of God, as was originally intended.

Of course, that opens up a HUGE (theological) can of worms...

Magdlyn

Got a link to prove this?

Says who? On the contrary, the Pharisees were attmepting to purify and correctly interpret Torah, in response to the corruption of the Saducees, or priests.

Yes. Only the Christian Bible has this type of portrait of the Pharisees as evil, viperous, foolish mis-interpreters of Torah. Even then, Mark and Acts show more repsect for the Pharisees than Matthew, Luke and John do.

Hyam Maccoby, a Jewish scholar, asserts quite convincingly, and shows evidence that Jesus was a Pharisee in fact. He wrote an entire book on this subject and touches on it in others.

Sensei Meela

"Prove?" I don't think so. But regardless, Ellen Kavanaugh provides the notion, here; I don't know of anything that sets precedence for it (would love to) and I'm aware that her 'authority' is somewhat lacking. It makes considerable sense to me, however.

[I recall there being an older thread that touched on this some more. Edit -- ah yes...Toto gave another source that seems to agree with Kavanaugh.]
"Matthew," for one.

[I probably should've just said "priests," as that's what I meant anyway]
And they were making an awful go of it, too, according to some. (See directly above and below)
I'm not sure it matters, internally at least; the only one who could correctly interpret the Scriptures is the One who issued them.

Make no mistake; all I see is a bunch of superstitious prohibitions and regulations that for the most part have (possibly interntionally) caused division for greater than 3 millenia.

Metacrock

Sorry, not what it says. Nowhere in that passage does it say this is for ever. That's your reading it in. it says the people can't change it, it says they must keep it, doesn't God wont change it.

Jerimiah tells us he will. 31 he tells us God will make a new convenat because the people broke the old one.






Everylasting for those who live under it. But that doestn' mean he wont fulfill it and in fulfilling it the meaning itself will change.








David ate the showbread and God didn't hurt him for it.




he's correcting the understanding of the law. The foods are clean themselves, in saying that he's saying the gentiles are not unclean, like Peter's vision in Acts, the food is a symbol of the culutre that eats it. It's an anit-racist statment.





this is all minutia. You really think you can jus throw out a vast 2000 year tradition because of such piddeling crap? Who cares?

the whole point is just being distorted anyway. He's saying that the motivations are in the heart. If you hate your brother you are a murder because you have the motive of a murderer. why does he say marrying a divorced woman is a sin? not because divorce is always a sin, but refurring to the kind of divorce we would find in the ancient world context, meaning that the woman had been cast our for dispealsing her husband. Marrying her would negate the responsiblity of the husband to take care of her.



I believe that the OT was just a cultural reference point anyway. It's just there to make a meaningful context for the bit about Jesus being Messiah. It does'n't have any real significance on its own.


Im sure all the interpretations of that depend upon which branch of Judaism one was in; heterodox, or orthodox, or whatever.