Johnny Skeptic

If a God exists, and really wanted to prove to everyone's satisfaction that he can predict the future, he could easily have done that long ago, and he could easily do so today if he wanted to. The logical conclusion is that if a God exists, he has not tried to convince people to believe that he can predict the future.

Archer

I perceive that a God's will for you to know the truth,would be all that was needed.I just feel,that Absolute truth from God would not need added attributes as we humans think of it as needing(like persuasion,visible signs,healing the sick etc.)

arnoldo

Just my personal belief is that prophecy is just as important after the fact than before the fact. Take a look at Yeshua how certainly fulfilled a lot of prophecies two thousand years ago. The people of the time couldn't understand it and crucified him for being a false prophet (or it's all a myth). The believers after the fact could look back at Yeshua and then realize the vast prophecies that he fulfilled. This gave them courage to endure persecution primarily by the Romans. In a same way the Jews who were scattered into all the nations after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem could reflect back on how God delivered them from the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks,etc and have faith that God would deliver them from the Romans too. Their faith made possible the fulfillment of God's promise to return them back into the land of Israel in 1948. Israel exists this very moment in fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise.

Johnny Skeptic

Why yes, but that is MY argument. The Bible does not contain one single indisputable prophecy that was confirmed after the fact. By "indisputable," I mean a fulfilled prophecy that at least 90% of the people in world would have have accepted. If President Bush predicted when and where the next hurricane would occur, and all of the world media let people know about his prediction, if his prediction came true, it is reasonable to assume that at least 90% of the people who knew about the prediction would believe that he knew in advance when and where the hurricane would occur. If he continued to make accurate predictions, pretty soon every mentally competent person in the world would believe that he was able to predict the future.

If the God of the Bible exists, he would easily have been able to convince every mentally competent person in the world that he is able to predict the future.

You are quite mistaken that God uses prophecy only as a sign for believers. If a number of Old Testament prophecies actually came true, surely at least one person who was not a Jew would have become a follower of the God of the Bible. Today, many skeptics have become Christians because of what they believe are fulfilled Bible prophecies.

Consider the following Scriptures:

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

All of those people were unbelievers, not believers, and only became believers when then witnessed tangible, firsthand miracles.

"O ye of little faith" contradicts the many miracles that Jesus and the disciples supposedly performed. Jesus supposedly criticized Thomas for wanting tangible evidence that he had risen from the dead, but yet Jesus was perfectly content to perform miracles before some stubborn skeptics who were not convinced by his words alone, and in one case even told some stubborn skeptics that if they would not accept his words by faith alone, to accept his words plus his miracles.

I would never accept a God who refused to give everyone access to the same quality of evidence. Even after the Holy Spirit supposedly came to the church, the book of Acts says that the disciples went about confirming the Gosple message by performing miracles. If if was appropriate for God to provide people back then with additional confirmations, since there are not any still-living eyewitnesses around today, it would be far more appropriate for God to enable someone to perform miracles all over the world today. Convincing miracles would be giving amputees new limbs. Many Christians ask God to heal them of illnesses. Do you know of any Christian amputees who have asked God to give them new limbs? If Christian amputees do not ask God to give them new limbs, why would they ask him for any tangible blessing?

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: Why was God so interested in prophecies that were about the Jews? Why did he turn his back on almost everyone else in the world during Old Testament times?

Johnny Skeptic

Why yes, but that is MY argument. The Bible does not contain one single indisputable prophecy that was confirmed after the fact. By "indisputable," I mean a fulfilled prophecy that at least 90% of the people in world would have have accepted. If President Bush predicted when and where the next hurricane would occur, and all of the world media let people know about his prediction, if his prediction came true, it is reasonable to assume that at least 90% of the people who knew about the prediction would believe that he knew in advance when and where the hurricane would occur. If he continued to make accurate predictions, pretty soon every mentally competent person in the world would believe that he was able to predict the future.

If the God of the Bible exists, he would easily have been able to convince every mentally competent person in the world that he is able to predict the future.

You are quite mistaken that God uses prophecy only as a sign for believers. If a number of Old Testament prophecies actually came true, surely at least one person who was not a Jew would have become a follower of the God of the Bible. Today, many skeptics have become Christians because of what they believe are fulfilled Bible prophecies.

Consider the following Scriptures:

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

All of those people were unbelievers, not believers, and only became believers when then witnessed tangible, firsthand miracles.

"O ye of little faith" contradicts the many miracles that Jesus and the disciples supposedly performed. Jesus supposedly criticized Thomas for wanting tangible evidence that he had risen from the dead, but yet Jesus was perfectly content to perform miracles before some stubborn skeptics who were not convinced by his words alone, and in one case even told some stubborn skeptics that if they would not accept his words by faith alone, to accept his words plus his miracles.

I would never accept a God who refused to give everyone access to the same quality of evidence. Even after the Holy Spirit supposedly came to the church, the book of Acts says that the disciples went about confirming the Gosple message by performing miracles. If if was appropriate for God to provide people back then with additional confirmations, since there are not any still-living eyewitnesses around today, it would be far more appropriate for God to enable someone to perform miracles all over the world today. Convincing miracles would be giving amputees new limbs. Many Christians ask God to heal them of illnesses. Do you know of any Christian amputees who have asked God to give them new limbs? If Christian amputees do not ask God to give them new limbs, why would they ask him for any tangible blessing?

James Brown

How many is "a lot"? According to Jews for Judaism the Messiah must fulfill a mere eight prophecies:

1. He must be Jewish
2. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah
3. He must be a descendant of David and Solomon
4. He must gather the Jews and return them to Israel
5. He must rebuild the temple in Jerusalem
6. He will rule at a time of world peace
7. He will rule at a time when the Jews obey God's commandments
8. He will rule at a time when *all* people acknowledge and serve one God.

Notice that there is no mention of other "Christian" prophecies such as being born of a virgin, fleeing to Egypt, performing supernatural miracles, or quoting scripture while hanging on a cross.

At best, the Jesus portrayed in the Gospels satisfied only the first three, and as the site explains, " If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."

arnoldo

It's almost impossible to understand bible prophecy before the fact unless under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit. After the fact it's generally understandable even by secularists (you might call it a bona-fide self fulfilled prophecy). Even Josephus recognized that the book of Daniel was prophetic because he understood after the fact. Even though a Jewish/Christian believers might not understand 100% future prophecies they can reflect on past prophecies accurately fullfilled and strengthen their faith to face all kinds of trials and tribulations.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: In the NASB, 2 Samuel 7:10 says "I will fix a place for my people Israel; I will plant them so that they may dwell in their place without further disturbance. Neither shall the wicked continue to afflict them as they did of old." The Partition of Palestine most certainly did not fulfill that prophecy, and it never will since the Jews are surrounded by hostile neighbors, not to mention terrorists who live in Israel, and some Muslim countries that are developing nuclear weapons. Since 2 Samuel 7:10 can never be fulfilled in this life, and since it refers to this life, it is a false prophecy. If you claim that the Israelis will make peace with Muslims, I will remind you that the New Testament says that there will always be wars and rumors of war in this life. That claim most certainly did not exclude the Middle East.

From another thread:

What you are actually proposing is that God wants people to hear the Gospel message, but only if another person tells them about it.

Johnny Skeptic

You will not be able to get away with claiming that God only uses prophecy to strengthen the faith of believers. Consider the following from a Christian web site:

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/why-ev...-prophecy.html

If President Bush predicted when and where the next hurricane would occur, and all of the world media let people know about his prediction, if his prediction came true, it is reasonable to assume that at least 90% of the people who knew about the prediction would believe that he knew in advance when and where the hurricane would occur. If he continued to make accurate predictions, pretty soon every mentally competent person in the world would believe that he was able to predict the future.

If the God of the Bible exists, he would easily have been able to convince every mentally competent person in the world that he is able to predict the future.

Although you claim that is was the Jews' fault that they did not accept Jesus, if the God of the Bible exists, he could easily have prevented any confusion regarding disputes about whether or not Jesus was the messiah. All that he would have needed to do would have been to inspire Old Testament writers to write unmistakable messianic prophecies. For instance, Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the writer had said that the ruler would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom, that would have helped a lot. In addition, regarding the Pharisees' claims that Jesus healed people by the power of Beelzebub, if an Old Testament writer had said that the messiah would heal people by the power of God, that would have helped a lot. Further, if an Old Testament writer had said that the messiah's name would be Jesus, and that his mother would be Mary, and that the messiah would be crucified, and rise from the dead, that would have helped a lot.

Now those are just a few of many examples of where God could easily have prevented disputes regarding whether or not Jesus was the messiah. A God would not have any trouble at all preventing disputes about anything, including slavery. Jefferson Davis was President of the Southern Confederacy. He was a Christian. He believed that the Bible endorses slavery, which it does. Even if the Bible did not endorse slavery, God could easily have prevented Davis from believing that the Bible endorses slavery. First of all, he could have inspired Bible writers to write more clearly about slavery. Second of all, he could have appeared to Davis in a dream and told him that slavery is wrong. Third of all, he could have sent a tangible angel to tell Davis that slavery is wrong.

In the NASB, 2 Samuel 7:10 says "I will fix a place for my people Israel; I will plant them so that they may dwell in their place without further disturbance. Neither shall the wicked continue to afflict them as they did of old." The Partition of Palestine most certainly did not fulfill that prophecy, and it never will since the Jews are surrounded by hostile neighbors, not to mention terrorists who live in Israel, and some Muslim countries that are developing nuclear weapons. Since 2 Samuel 7:10 can never be fulfilled in this life, and since it refers to this life, it is a false prophecy. It you claim that Jews will make peace with Muslims, I will remind you that the New Testament says that there will always be wars and rumors of wars in this life, and that certainly does not exclude the Middle East.

That is easily explained by the facts that the partition of Palestine is a self-fulfilled prophecy, and that the Middle East has the largest oil reserves in the world. If the Arab-Israel conflict was happening in the middle of a remote Australian desert that had few natural resources, most nations would not care about the conflict.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, it is reasonable to conclude that the Partition of Palestine would have happened anyway. Whether or not a prophecy is true or not does not make any difference. All that makes a difference is whether or not people who have enough military power BELIEVE that it is true, and want to MAKE it come true. In other words, if the God of the Bible does not exist, the BELIEF that he exists accounts for why Jesusalem is a source of concern for all nations. If Islam is a false religion, you will have to admit that the BELIEF that Islam is the one and only true religion is why Muslims do many of the things that they do.

All that it takes to occupy land is desire, and sufficient military power. If Muslims had enough military power, they would control all of Palestine today. Historically, Palestine has always been controlled by parties who had the most military power. There are not any good reasons for anyone to assume that the Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again..

You said that many Muslims will become Christians, although you did not provide any credible evidence that backs that up. Islam is the fastest growing major religion in the world. Of course, you lose hands down becuase the New Testament says that in the last days, many will turn away from the faith. Now how can you have many people coming to the faith and many people turning away from the faith at the same time? In addition, Jesus basically said that the way to hell is broad, and that the way to heaven is narrow, and that only a few people will go to heaven.

There is nothing at all about Jewish history that cannot easily be explained by secular means. The Partition of Palestine could not possibly have been a fulfilled prophecy because Genesis 17:8 says that God will give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of Canaan. Today, Jews do not occupy anywhere near all of the land of Canaan. Following your same line of reasoning, if the Jews occupied only one square mile of Palestine, that would be a fulfilled prophecy.

Since you are not able to provide reasonable motives why God undermines his credibility by making disputable prophecies when he could easily make indisputable prophecies, you lose.

You ought to know that power does not legitimize authority.