Freethought & Rationalism Archive

neorask · 12-22-2004, 09:16 PM

Children sometimes disobey their parents by lying to them and not recognizing their parent's authority over them. Some children have even gone as far as trying to divorce their parents. However, children don’t exclusively disobey their parents. They also frequently disobey teachers, relatives, coaches, and practically any authoritative figure. Unfortunately, this does not just apply to children. In this age, people of all ages often disregard authority. Adults disobey traffic lights and signs, and some even speak badly of policemen and government officials.

The human race is a stubborn and rebellious race that often will not regard any authority that hinders what their free will, nature, or imagination wants to do. People do not want to come under anyone’s authority so they question it, try to find fault with it, accuse it, ridicule it, and even make excuses to justify themselves in their own eyes so that they don't have to yield to those in authority over them. To put it in a nutshell, people do not like to feel bad or guilty about their selves or anything they do, and they would much rather put the blame on someone else or take any necessary action to eliminate any feelings of guilt, any restrictions of will, or any limitations on desires.

The possibility of the existence of God poses the biggest threat of all....it suggests that there is an afterlife and that the experiences of this afterlife are determined by the actions of the life we currently live. Justification for personal satisfaction does not mix with authority. People don't want to be told what to do by another human, and much less by someone who they can't physically see, touch, hear, feel, or smell. And it is a definite that people don't want to be told that something they agree with is wrong. Nobody wants to be wrong. Some rebellious and stubborn people attempt to go around God’s authority. In doing this, they sidestep the idea of God reigning over them by turning to another authority—the authority of deception. In the Bible, 1 Samuel 8:7 states: And the Lord said unto Samuel, “Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.�? It amazes me on how people in the days of Moses who actually witnessed many feats performed by God still rejected His authority. This proves that people want to do their own thing, and the greater the threat is against someone's independence, the more they will want to escape this threat. Even if someone chooses to humble themselves and submit to a greater power, I guarantee that the thought of justification for personal gain has at least crossed their mind.

Have I just put my feet on your rug? Or am I still too "absurd" to offend anyone? I find it funny on how easily I can offend someone by questioning thier beliefs. They say that it is a personal matter. I say they are afraid of the truth.

badger3k · 12-22-2004, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorask

Children sometimes disobey their parents by lying to them and not recognizing their parent's authority over them. Some children have even gone as far as trying to divorce their parents. However, children don’t exclusively disobey their parents. They also frequently disobey teachers, relatives, coaches, and practically any authoritative figure. Unfortunately, this does not just apply to children. In this age, people of all ages often disregard authority. Adults disobey traffic lights and signs, and some even speak badly of policemen and government officials.

So far, it's completely irrelevant, (this proves the Bible is true?) but go on...

Quote:

The human race is a stubborn and rebellious race that often will not regard any authority that hinders what their free will, nature, or imagination wants to do. People do not want to come under anyone’s authority so they question it, try to find fault with it, accuse it, ridicule it, and even make excuses to justify themselves in their own eyes so that they don't have to yield to those in authority over them. To put it in a nutshell, people do not like to feel bad or guilty about their selves or anything they do, and they would much rather put the blame on someone else or take any necessary action to eliminate any feelings of guilt, any restrictions of will, or any limitations on desires.

So, this is a possible explanation for gods and/or devils. We want someone to blame.

Quote:

The possibility of the existence of God poses the biggest threat of all....it suggests that there is an afterlife and that the experiences of this afterlife are determined by the actions of the life we currently live. Justification for personal satisfaction does not mix with authority. People don't want to be told what to do by another human, and much less by someone who they can't physically see, touch, hear, feel, or smell. And it is a definite that people don't want to be told that something they agree with is wrong. Nobody wants to be wrong. Some rebellious and stubborn people attempt to go around God’s authority. In doing this, they sidestep the idea of God reigning over them by turning to another authority—the authority of deception. In the Bible, 1 Samuel 8:7 states: And the Lord said unto Samuel, “Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.�? It amazes me on how people in the days of Moses who actually witnessed many feats performed by God still rejected His authority. This proves that people want to do their own thing, and the greater the threat is against someone's independence, the more they will want to escape this threat. Even if someone chooses to humble themselves and submit to a greater power, I guarantee that the thought of justification for personal gain has at least crossed their mind.

You assume a lot without proving anything. Why is it deception to reject the Christian beliefs, when there is no proof they are real. Why not accept the Islamic beliefs, or Buddhist, Santeria, Hindi, Wiccan, or even atheist? Perhaps it is deception to believe that the Christian god has ultimate power?

You also assume that the Moses story was, in fact, real, when by all archealogical evidence, it's probably completely mythological. So, with no "miracles", it's kinda easy for people not to believe something, isn't it?

Your line of "Nobody wants to be wrong" is particularly ironic. I know that my beliefs may be completely wrong, but they work for me, so it doesn't matter. Can you say the same for yours?

Quote:

Have I just put my feet on your rug? Or am I still too "absurd" to offend anyone? I find it funny on how easily I can offend someone by questioning thier beliefs. They say that it is a personal matter. I say they are afraid of the truth.

Feel free to question mine. Since I have made finding the truth of things one of my goals (admittedly in some areas impossible, but I am only human), why would I be afraid? Unfortunately, all you have is speculation, not truth with a capital "T" - your subjective truths are not mine, nor, despite your wishes, are they objective for the entire world.

PoodleLovinPessimist · 12-22-2004, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorask

Have I just put my feet on your rug? Or am I still too "absurd" to offend anyone?

Still too absurd. Post 2 of 7 is an interesting display of your apparently submissive attitudes toward authority, but there's not a shred of argumentation in it.

Quote:

I find it funny on how easily I can offend someone by questioning thier beliefs.

You haven't offended me. Amused me a bit, but not offended me.

Quote:

I say they are afraid of the truth.

:rolling: "Anyone who disagrees with me is afraid of the truth." Always a good argument.

Lord Emsworth · 12-22-2004, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorask (2. post)

I say they are afraid of the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorask (1. post)

I like to view the Bible, Christianity, and God as the most logical choice. Think about it. No God, nothing after death = well NOTHING. God and belief in God = an opportunity for eternity in paradise. What would be the logical choice? Nothing or the chance for something? Didn't someone once say "it is better to have loved and lost than to not have loved at all?"

Now perhaps you can tell me who has a reason to be afraid of the truth? I mean wouldn't it be terrible if there was nothing, nothing, NOTHING after death.

Styrofoam · 12-23-2004, 12:08 AM

Let's have fun with summarizing neorask's argument!

Post 1: Pascal's Wager.

Post 2: People dislike authority, and people dislike the Bible. Thus, the Bible is true.

By the way, neorask, thanks for a week's worth of entertainment.

Sven · 12-23-2004, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorask

The human race is a stubborn and rebellious race that often will not regard any authority that hinders what their free will, nature, or imagination wants to do. People do not want to come under anyone’s authority so they question it, try to find fault with it, accuse it, ridicule it, and even make excuses to justify themselves in their own eyes so that they don't have to yield to those in authority over them. [...]

The possibility of the existence of God poses the biggest threat of all....it suggests that there is an afterlife and that the experiences of this afterlife are determined by the actions of the life we currently live. Justification for personal satisfaction does not mix with authority. People don't want to be told what to do by another human, and much less by someone who they can't physically see, touch, hear, feel, or smell.

I think three words answer this completely:
Invisible Sky Daddy.

[a little bit more in detail: Is a Daddy someone who you are more inclined to be afraid of or someone who you like to have very much?]

Dean Anderson · 12-23-2004, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorask

Children sometimes disobey their parents by lying to them and not recognizing their parent's authority over them. Some children have even gone as far as trying to divorce their parents. However, children don’t exclusively disobey their parents. They also frequently disobey teachers, relatives, coaches, and practically any authoritative figure. Unfortunately, this does not just apply to children. In this age, people of all ages often disregard authority. Adults disobey traffic lights and signs, and some even speak badly of policemen and government officials.

Agreed - but what does this have to do with whether the Bible is true or not?

Quote:

The human race is a stubborn and rebellious race that often will not regard any authority that hinders what their free will, nature, or imagination wants to do. People do not want to come under anyone’s authority so they question it, try to find fault with it, accuse it, ridicule it, and even make excuses to justify themselves in their own eyes so that they don't have to yield to those in authority over them.

This is obviously why the human race prefers to live in complete anarchy, and never sets up any kind of controlling body for any group.

Oh, wait, from the chairperson and seceratary of the smallest club to the large governments of countries - we always set up controlling authorities for ourselves.

I guess we don't hate authority as much as you assume. Indeed, the vast majority of people are much more content with the psychological safety that having an authority and structure to their activities brings.

Quote:

To put it in a nutshell, people do not like to feel bad or guilty about their selves or anything they do, and they would much rather put the blame on someone else or take any necessary action to eliminate any feelings of guilt, any restrictions of will, or any limitations on desires.

And therefore they will blame their failings on mythological stories.

"It's not my fault I'm less than perfect - the first man did something wrong and now I've inherited his 'sin'."

"It's not my fault I'm less than perfect - Satan decieved me."

"I don't want to take responsibility for my own life, but it is okay because I have Jesus to save me and take the responsibility for me."

Yep - Christianity certainly eliminates feelings of guilt and responsibility like you say, blaming everything bad on our "corrupt" nature and saying that we don't have to worry because its invented entities will make things allright in the end.

(A note to other Christians - I am not saying that all Christians believe for these reasons, just that a large majority of the unthinking "sheep" do.)

Quote:

The possibility of the existence of God poses the biggest threat of all....it suggests that there is an afterlife and that the experiences of this afterlife are determined by the actions of the life we currently live. Justification for personal satisfaction does not mix with authority. People don't want to be told what to do by another human, and much less by someone who they can't physically see, touch, hear, feel, or smell. And it is a definite that people don't want to be told that something they agree with is wrong. Nobody wants to be wrong. Some rebellious and stubborn people attempt to go around God’s authority. In doing this, they sidestep the idea of God reigning over them by turning to another authority—the authority of deception.

In your last post you said that people would want to believe in God because it provides comfort. In this post you say that people would not want to believe in God because it provides restrictions and structure (depsite the evidence that people generally want structure to their lives).

Apart from the contradictory nature of these arguments, neither of them have anything to do with proving that the Bible is true. So far, all you have said is that some people would want the Bible to be true and some would want it not to be.

When are you going to get to the part where you prove the Bible to be true - like you said you were going to?

Quote:

In the Bible, 1 Samuel 8:7 states: And the Lord said unto Samuel, “Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.�? It amazes me on how people in the days of Moses who actually witnessed many feats performed by God still rejected His authority.

Hold your horses! You haven't yet proved the Bible to be true. Until you do so, this is just a set of empty words.

Why should we believe that God said that to Samuel? Why should we believe that Moses existed? Why should we believe that the stories are true?

Until you give us reason to believe any of these stories (which is what this thread was supposed to do), they are of no more relevance than the stories of Cinderella and Jack And The Beanstalk.

Quote:

This proves that people want to do their own thing, and the greater the threat is against someone's independence, the more they will want to escape this threat. Even if someone chooses to humble themselves and submit to a greater power, I guarantee that the thought of justification for personal gain has at least crossed their mind.

It proves nothing. So far you have merely contradicted yourself, confused desire for something to be true with logical proof that it is true, and quoted from the very Bible whose truth is under question.

When are you going give up on this emotional flim-flam about whether people would want to believe in God or not, and start your argument proving that the Bible is true?

Quote:

Have I just put my feet on your rug? Or am I still too "absurd" to offend anyone? I find it funny on how easily I can offend someone by questioning thier beliefs. They say that it is a personal matter. I say they are afraid of the truth.

Still "absurd" in my book. Sorry.

Don't worry, I don't think any atheist here will be offended by you questioning their beliefs. After all, most atheists got that way by questioning their beliefs, so they see questioning as a good thing.

On the other hand, you may offend people by repeatedly flat-out asserting that they are wrong without any evidence to back up your position (which is what a lot of Christians who visit this site do) - and rightly so. That is just rude.

Jack the Bodiless · 12-23-2004, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorask

Day 2 of 7: Human Nature

Is it your intention to post a prepared sermon every day for the next 5 days?

If so, would you mind breaking the sequence in order to post your "proof that the Bible is true" next?

...Especially if you're going to post Bible quotes (either literal or paraphrased) in the intervening sermons. They will be ignored (at best) until you prove that the Bible is true.

LP675 · 12-23-2004, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorask

The possibility of the existence of God poses the biggest threat of all....it suggests that there is an afterlife and that the experiences of this afterlife are determined by the actions of the life we currently live... People don't want to be told what to do

Testify!

I dig, its probably more appropriate material for a pulpit though.

Plognark · 12-23-2004, 05:11 AM

This seems like a golden opportunity to shoot down day one as a not even thinly disguised Pascal's Wager

Quote:

Originally Posted by Styrofoam

Let's have fun with summarizing neorask's argument!

Post 1: Pascal's Wager.

Post 2: People dislike authority, and people dislike the Bible. Thus, the Bible is true.

By the way, neorask, thanks for a week's worth of entertainment.

Yeah, that's how i'd sum it up. Not especially compelling

12-22-2004, 09:16 PM	#21
neorask Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: A dirt hole in Texas Posts: 222	Day 2 of 7: Human Nature Children sometimes disobey their parents by lying to them and not recognizing their parent's authority over them. Some children have even gone as far as trying to divorce their parents. However, children don’t exclusively disobey their parents. They also frequently disobey teachers, relatives, coaches, and practically any authoritative figure. Unfortunately, this does not just apply to children. In this age, people of all ages often disregard authority. Adults disobey traffic lights and signs, and some even speak badly of policemen and government officials. The human race is a stubborn and rebellious race that often will not regard any authority that hinders what their free will, nature, or imagination wants to do. People do not want to come under anyone’s authority so they question it, try to find fault with it, accuse it, ridicule it, and even make excuses to justify themselves in their own eyes so that they don't have to yield to those in authority over them. To put it in a nutshell, people do not like to feel bad or guilty about their selves or anything they do, and they would much rather put the blame on someone else or take any necessary action to eliminate any feelings of guilt, any restrictions of will, or any limitations on desires. The possibility of the existence of God poses the biggest threat of all....it suggests that there is an afterlife and that the experiences of this afterlife are determined by the actions of the life we currently live. Justification for personal satisfaction does not mix with authority. People don't want to be told what to do by another human, and much less by someone who they can't physically see, touch, hear, feel, or smell. And it is a definite that people don't want to be told that something they agree with is wrong. Nobody wants to be wrong. Some rebellious and stubborn people attempt to go around God’s authority. In doing this, they sidestep the idea of God reigning over them by turning to another authority—the authority of deception. In the Bible, 1 Samuel 8:7 states: And the Lord said unto Samuel, “Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.�? It amazes me on how people in the days of Moses who actually witnessed many feats performed by God still rejected His authority. This proves that people want to do their own thing, and the greater the threat is against someone's independence, the more they will want to escape this threat. Even if someone chooses to humble themselves and submit to a greater power, I guarantee that the thought of justification for personal gain has at least crossed their mind. Have I just put my feet on your rug? Or am I still too "absurd" to offend anyone? I find it funny on how easily I can offend someone by questioning thier beliefs. They say that it is a personal matter. I say they are afraid of the truth.

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12-23-2004, 12:08 AM	#25
Styrofoam Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Atlanta, in the 99% Posts: 873	Let's have fun with summarizing neorask's argument! Post 1: Pascal's Wager. Post 2: People dislike authority, and people dislike the Bible. Thus, the Bible is true. By the way, neorask, thanks for a week's worth of entertainment.

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