Dean Anderson

In a recent thread on homosexuality in MF&P, Neorask said...

-and-
Well Neorask, here's your chance to do so. This thread is especially for you to provide your proof on.

Out of politeness, I would ask the regulars of this forum not to jump straight in with pre-emptive comments about Neorask's proof - give Neorask chance to have his say first.

neorask

To all who have an eye and an ear with a brain somewhere in between.

I am not going to begin right away by quoting the Bible or deciphering its passages. To make it easier for everyone to better understand the things that I will say, I must first describe my logic and reasoning methods.

Imagine that you have never seen an image of yourself and, therefore, have absolutely no idea what you look like. Now, let's say that, unbeknownst to you, you come before the largest, most spotless, perfectly reflective mirror ever known to man. Even though your eyes would deceive your brain by sending an unrecognizable image, your brain would be able to use logic to determine that it is only a reflection of yourself. But let's say the situation is more believable/deceiving than what our mental capacity for logic can handle. What then? Since the human brain is circuited in a way where it must always have an answer, it will make up it's own answers even if there is nothing to go by. This ability has many names such as "free will," the "imagination," "best educated guess," etc, etc.

I would like to use the movie the Matrix as an example. In the movie, everyone was in a lifelike (lucid) dream which they knew as reality. They did not know the truth because they had never been given a good reason (proof) to doubt their "reality" and because human nature is too involved in itself to look beyond an appearance.

I like to view the Bible, Christianity, and God as the most logical choice. Think about it. No God, nothing after death = well NOTHING. God and belief in God = an opportunity for eternity in paradise. What would be the logical choice? Nothing or the chance for something? Didn't someone once say "it is better to have loved and lost than to not have loved at all?"

So, in concusion, I am willing to bet that everyone is in agreement with me that there are things out there that we do not know about and things that we do not understand. God is simply what few people know of and what even fewer understand. I am told by many people that God doesn't exist, however, no one has even proven this to me. Likewise, I would feel fulfilled if even one person in a million began to doubt thier beliefs of no God because of something I said, but I am afraid that this one person would not admit to it anyways.

I look foward to this test I have presented myself with. Please allow me seven posts/days to post my complete argument before I am flooded with a gazillion posts. After that, I will answer everyone's disagreements.
~Seth~

show_no_mercy

Somehow, someway, you've equivocated "logical" with "most appeasing".

Let's continue with this line of "logic":

How about MANY Gods = a whole lot of paradises to choose from over ONE God with only one paradise to choose from. Or how about NO God, no dogmas or rules to follow, and everyone STILL gets to go to some sort of "heaven". The last example is the most "logical" according to you, because it's the most "pleasing".

Jack the Bodiless

Well, you're not off to a very good start there. I think we atheists understand "God" pretty well.

"It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bothers me; it's the parts I do understand" - Mark Twain.

Dean Anderson

I have two eyes and two ears, am I over-qualified?

Kudos to you, though, for being up to the challenge!

Are you saying that because there is nothing to go by, we make up the concept of "God" as an answer, and that this is somehow a good thing?

One might hope that there is an opportunity for eternity in paradise, and wish for an opportunity in paradise - but the logical choice is to go where the evidence leads - just like in the mirror example. We may want to find a magical companion in the mirror, but the evidence points to it simply being a reflection of ourself.

Yes. It was Lord Tennyson, in his poem In Memorium - later satirised by Samuel Butler in The Way of All Flesh.

This much we can agree on - although as we increases what we know (through science and archaeology), the gap left in our understanding grows smaller and smaller. If there is a god of any kind out there in the unknown, it (or they) are much less than Christianity tells us.

Getting some feedback after each post may help guide the direction of your further posts, even if you do not reply until you have finished...

Sven

Sorry, please correct me if I misunderstood - but is this really Pascal's wager?

Chris Weimer

I never remember anyone equating free will with illogical imagination.

So you're saying that we all should continue to live in the Matrix because we're comfortable with it? I'm not understanding your "logic" here, actually it sounds like emotion with a touch of Pascal's Wager. "Why not believe in something, just to be sure..." :down:

hum

Neorask....
"I like to view the Bible, Christianity, and God as the most logical choice. Think about it. No God, nothing after death = well NOTHING. God and belief in God = an opportunity for eternity in paradise. What would be the logical choice? Nothing or the chance for something? Didn't someone once say "it is better to have loved and lost than to not have loved at all?"


....not at all sure this is "logical" Surely you need first to prove the existence of God and his paradise before you can say that to choose it would be logical.

hum

LP675

Far out, prove the truth of the bible, this should be interesting. It’s a daring move at least. Then again, I think they usually say discretion is the better part of valor.

Vorkosigan

I don't see what the OP has to do with the truth of the Bible. I think many kinds of Christians could subscribe to "the Bible, Christianity, and God" including those who do not think gays should be denied their civil rights. Perhaps we should start with something simpler: what does Neorask mean by "the truth of the Bible?" Then we could decide what kind of case would be needed to satisfy that.

Vorkosigan