sotto voce

But it is. If it is admitted that non-Christian Americans spray 'Jesus saves' today, one has to ask why they do it, and whether the same motivation existed in apostolic days. And remember that the USA is unique.

aa5874

Be careful of what you say. You may have a nephew. Justin's "First Apology" was addressed to the Emperor Antoninus and appears to be corroborated by the DATED Texts of antiquity.

The Jesus movement appeared to have been extremely small and in its infancy stage in the time of Justin. There appeared to have been many Cults called Christians in the time of Justin but they did NOT believe the Jesus story.

Justin is Corroborated by the writings of Theophilus of Antioch and Athenagoras and by the mention of many, many so-called "non-orthodox" Christians in the 2nd century.

JUSTIN MARTYR -- THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN 1
Now, where is the evidence to show that First Apology was NOT written during the reign of Antoninus??? Where is the evidence that the Jesus cult was NOT in its infancy stage in the mid 2nd century.

The Dated Texts support Justin Martyr. Now, please show that some creature is NOT your nephew.

Duvduv

AA, do you have his fingerprints or the signed delivery card from Fedex or UPS when it was delivered? How the heck do you even know if this was a letter ever written or delivered (any more than any of the epistles), especially in light of all the points I raised? One little introduction eliminates all questions and answers concerning the actual content and context of the letter? If I tell you I found a letter written by Captain Kirk to President Nixon, is it automatically the truth just because it says it?

Atheos

It is not. At question here is whether or not such graffiti exists. It does. Period. Who wrote the graffiti is immaterial.

Among other things, graffiti is evidence of expression of ideas common in varying cultures or sub-cultures. Who actually authors the graffiti is irrelevant.

This all started as a discussion on why "christian" ideas / imagery are non-existent in the time period in question. You suggested it was non existent then for the same reason it is non existent today:
You can argue your scottsman fallacy until the cows come home, but it's nothing more than a semantics argument, and a poor one at that. There's nothing wrong with admitting you're wrong every once in awhile.

As far as the USA being unique I might point out that the two images I posted in my earlier link are in the UK. Not that that has anything to do with the discussion at hand.

sotto voce

It is. I could tell you what some Brits think, but it's not good for international relationships.

aa5874

You don't seem to understand the difference between the 'Truth' and 'Written Statements' of antiquity.

Just because you do NOT believe a Written Statement does NOT mean the Statement is False.

Written Statements of antiquity are NOT automatically false because you do NOT believe them.

It is absurd to use a known fictitious character as an analogy to Justin Martyr.

If you know Captain Kirk NEVER existed then please explain how in the world would you have found his letter to Nixon??

Duvduv

How do you know Justin Martyr as the author of that Apology is any more real than Captain Kirk?

aa5874

How do you know that there was an actual Nicene Creed??

How do you know the contents of the Nicene Creed???

How do you know there was a Council of Nicaea??

Duvduv

I don't know. I just consider it a reference point in the new regime period. But putting all thw pieces together about the Apology I consider it from later rather than earlier.

aa5874

Well, if you don't know why are you arguing with me???

You don't even know if there was a real Captain Kirk!!! Who told you about Captain Kirk?? Do you believe everyting you read about Captain Kirk?? Do you have a notarized affidavit for Captain Kirk???

If you don't have a notarized affidavit then it makes very little sense to tell me about Captain Kirk.

I am dealing with the DATED Texts and they CORROBORATE the WRITTEN Statements found in writings attributed to Justin Martyr.

I am using the Written Statements found in writings attributed to Justin Martyr as a REFERENCE POINT for the EARLY stage of the Jesus cult.

In writings attributed to Justin the Roman Emperor, the Senate and the Roman people knew VERY little about the Jesus cult up to c 150 CE and that is compatible with the DATED Texts.

I no longer accept imaginary evidence. I am using Sources that are COMPATIBLE with the DATED Texts.