mountainman

Does Jesus cite Paul in the Gnostic literature?


According to Original Gospel of Thomas in Translation: With a Commentary and New English Translation of the Complete Gospel (or via: amazon.co.uk) (see google books)
By April D. De Conick, in the Gospel of Thomas at Logion 17


SOURCE DISCUSSION

What conjectures exist for the source saying?
The following are summarised from the abovebook ...

The source may have been ...

(a) Jewish-Christian Gospel source, gNazarenes?
(b) liturgy of the synagogue (IQS 11.508, a Qumram hymn)?
(c) Christian prophets developed OT passages believed to be prophetic of JC.
(d) from a non-Christian tradition ?
(e) from a Christian tradition ?

(f) From Paul? Highly unlikely since gThomas reflects no clear awareness of 1 Cor. and would not have placed it on the lips of Jesus.

Why do people think that the author of the gThomas would not have placed the words from Paul on the lips of Jesus? As far as the evidence suggests, the author of the gThomas is not alone in doing so ..... There are a total of six uses by the Gnostics, where this is spoken by Jesus or "The Lord". How is this to be explained?

LITERATURE PARALLELS


1. Cor. 2.9-10

"But as it is written, what no eye has seen,
nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived,
what God has prepared for those who love him.
God has revealed to us through the spirit.


Dialogue of the Saviour 57 <<<<==== (1)

1 Clement 34.8

2 Clement 11.7

Martyrdom of Peter 10 <<<<==== (2)

Acts of Peter 39 <<<<==== (3)

Acts of Thomas 36 <<<<==== (4)

Pseudo-Clementine Recognitions 1.44

Pseudo-Philo, Liber antiquitatum biblicarum 26.13

Prayer of the Apostle Paul 1,A,26-35 <<<<==== (5)

Apostolic Constitutions 7.32

Turfan Manichaean fragment M 789

Isaiah 64.4

Pseudo-Titus Epistle <<<<==== (6)

This text explicitly says the Lord's mouth and not Paul's mouth.

Are the nation of Christians indeed an incomprehensible race?

In any event, it appears that there are left only two logical alternatives. Either there is some long lost common text which harmonises the use of this phrase by Paul and by the Gnostics, OR the Gnostics simply placed the words of Paul into the mouth of Jesus for reasons as yet not known.


It is also interesting that Muhammad also wants to get in on the act of using this phrase ... "what no eye has seen, etc, etc"

Muhammad and Jesus: a comparison of the prophets and their teachings (or via: amazon.co.uk) (on google books By William E. Phipps, who writes that in Muhammad's gospel ...

Toto

I don't see the difficulty. Paul in 1 Cor writes "as it is written," and writing in Paul generally refers to the written scriptures.

So these are not the words of Paul, according to Paul, but the words of the Hebrew scriptures. I assume that Paul thinks that god speaks to him through the scriptures, creatively interpreted with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Alternatively, this passage in 1 Cor could have been added by a gnostic editor, or my Marcion.

stephan huller

Wow I found another closeted Marcionite. They are everywhere I hear.

Toto

Oops - that was a typo for "by Marcion." And now I can't correct it.

mountainman

The difficulty is determining what source was used by the Gnostics in gThomas and the other 5 texts cited.
For some unknown reason the Gnostic authors appear to have favored this phrase.
Where did they find it?

Here is the spread of hypothetical options again ...

(a) Jewish-Christian Gospel source, gNazarenes?
(b) liturgy of the synagogue (IQS 11.508, a Qumram hymn)?
(c) Christian prophets developed OT passages believed to be prophetic of JC.
(d) from a non-Christian tradition ?
(e) from a Christian tradition ?
(f) From Paul? Deconnick writes ... "Highly unlikely since gThomas reflects no clear awareness of 1 Cor. and would not have placed it on the lips of Jesus."

Toto

Why do you keep repeating your previous posts? What are points in favor of any of those options? Why is this an important question?

mountainman

Because the questions therein are not addressed.

These options summarise what the academics conjecture
with respect to the useage by the gnostic authors
of this phrase in the gOspel of Thomas ...

(a) Jewish-Christian Gospel source, gNazarenes?
(b) liturgy of the synagogue (IQS 11.508, a Qumram hymn)?
(c) Christian prophets developed OT passages believed to be prophetic of JC.
(d) from a non-Christian tradition ?
(e) from a Christian tradition ?
(f) From Paul?

Options a through e suggest perhaps a common source for the canon (ie: Paul) and the gnostic material. There is little if any evidence for any of these conjectures.

Option (f) - from Paul - is being rejected by the academics on the basis that, as Deconnick states ... "Highly unlikely since gThomas reflects no clear awareness of 1 Cor. and would not have placed it on the lips of Jesus."

It is not known precisely how early WHEN the Gnostic reaction commenced. However the evidence tells us that many gnostic works were still being authored in the 4th century. My idea is that these Gnostics would have in fact witnessed the presence of the first widespread publications of Paul, and that therefore some of this known later gnostic reaction (after Nicaea, after the Constantine Bible) may in fact be related to the text in Paul.

I see therefore points in favor of (f) over the others on the basis of the known evidence.

The origin of the Christian NT canonical literature has always been treated as an important question, and rightfully so. However I keep insisting that even if we had reasonably sure and certain theories (based on evidence, which at the moment is non existent) in regard to the origin of this most important literature - the NT canon and the stories of the "Historical Jesus" - we could still not yet develop a general theory for the whole picture of "Christian Origins" because of the problem (question) as to where do the books of the Gnostic Gospels and Acts etc fit in to the whole span of history, and how are they related to the first question - the NT canonical books.

Robert M Grant wrote that the Gnostics presented ....

"severely conditoned responses to Jesus ... usually these authors deny his humanity"

It is an important question because the Gnostic response to the NT canon is a critical unknown intersection in asking questions related to when, who, how and why both these two series of books were authored. And also, because the Gnostics themselves are an interesting study.



Specifically here, this phrase : "what no eye has seen, ... etc".

What source did the Gnostics have in their possession to have
cited this at least half a dozen times in half a dozen separate works?


Examining the Gnostic/Heretic Evidence
for what it is and where it was sourced.

It is clear that at least some academics are treating all these questions seriously.
It is also clear that the converse is true - some academics "dismiss as inferior" the gnostic/heretic EVIDENCE and its related "questions" - as was earlier summarised below elsewhere.

Toto

Then no one wants to continue the conversation. You can't force people to take you seriously, or stop ignoring you. You can only annoy the moderators.

Chili

Someone should have told Jesus that we look with our eyes and see with our mind, just as we listen with our ears and hear with our minf or finger with our fingers but feel with our mind.

spamandham

You're a mod. You can always abuse your magic powers if you want to. Go ahead, just a little, just this once. :devil2: