BioBeing

Now what happens if the little boy has been really really good, has just aced a test, and begs for ice cream again. However, Mom doesn't have any cash on her, and the ice cream shop doesn't take credit cards. The nearest ATM is broken and she is rushing to get home to cook supper. Result - boy does not get ice cream. An omnimax God could just poof a cone into existence for the boy. Conclusion: the mother is NOT god.

You know - I have never seen an ice cream cone just poof into existence. And yes - those IVF prayer studies were faked. And there is still war in the world.

TomboyMom

Research summary:
intecessory prayer has measurable health benefits for the person praying. When the person being prayed for is a third party, it has no measurable benefits for that person. That is, praying is good for you, but doesn't get you anything from God.

ManM

This isn't necessarily the case. The mother might want ice cream for herself.

You don't understand analogies, do you? You don't believe in God, you believe in chance. You believe prayer is inconsequential and has no impact on chance. That's fine and dandy. I don't believe that. My analogy is not meant to reflect your beliefs. It is meant to reflect my beliefs.

Maybe the mom doesn't want her son to get fat? Or perhaps she wants her son to ace tests for the sake of personal excellence, not for the sake of ice cream? Have you considered that she might have motives of her own, independent of the boy's plea for ice cream?

Integra96

Even if this were true, I don't see how it helps your analogy.

Your analogy still fails. If not, show me why my criticism of it is not valid.

BDS

If everything is predetermined (as is certainly possible given an atheistic, mechnanistic world-view, just as it is given a religious world-view), then prayer is just as "causal" as anything else.

In other words, both the prayer and the result were predestined from the beginning of time.

BlessNot

According to Merriam-Webster:

Work: activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something: a : sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result;

I think the one in bold relates to prayer quite well don't you? the question is are those obstacles overcome and accomplished by an invisible deity? I think people are able to overcome obstacles on their own or with the help and assistance of other people.

BlessNot

If a God with omniscience truly did exist then there wouldn't be any need for anyone to pray at all, such a being would already know what's in peoples minds before they even think about asking. However, such an entity is impossible, it does not exist.

ManM

Your criticism was that I can't establish a predictable causal relationship between the boy's request and his mother's actions. You are making the claim that the mother's actions are completely independent of the boy's request. I can't prove you wrong. It is entirely possible that the mother is flipping a coin every morning to determine if she will get ice cream for her son. However, it is also possible that she considers his request, sometimes granting it, sometimes not. It is also quite possible that she might feel like taking him to get some ice cream, even if he didn't ask for it. The point is that she is acting in a way that is not predictable. She is acting like an independent person. It's not hard to extend that situation to God, who also acts like an independent person. The fact that he answers prayers unpredictably does not mean that he doesn't answer prayers. It might mean he ignores prayers, but it is not necessary to infer that.

Ojuice5001

Although I don't believe the gods are omniscient, it's true that they can read any of our thoughts, not just prayers. Nevertheless, the prayer is a deliberate effort on the part of a human to communicate with the gods. Therefore, a praying human is creating different thoughts than he would have if he weren't praying; thoughts that are actually addressed to the gods, instead of just thoughts that might be overheard by them.

ex-preacher

Prayer Algebra

aspirin + prayer = cure for headache
aspirin = cure for headache
therefore, prayer = 0


eyeglasses or contacts or eye surgery + prayer = improved eyesight
eyeglasses or contacts or eye surgery = improved eyesight
therefore, prayer = 0

toothpaste + toothbrush + work + prayer = clean teeth
toothpaste + toothbrush + work = clean teeth
therefore, prayer = 0

Prayer does not appear to be effective in the following cases:
partial loss of hearing
cataracts
missing arms, legs, teeth, eyes, ears, any other organ or body part
impotence
dandruff
paraplegia or quadraplegia
Alzheimer’s
incontinence
heart failure
ingrown nails
cerebral palsy
death
AIDS
muscular dystrophy
hair loss
broken bones (arms, legs, hips, fingers, nose, ribs,etc)
leukemia
hepatitis
diabetes
malaria
tuberculosis
ear wax
athlete’s foot
bubonic plague
hemorrhaging
ear infections
common cold
kidney failure
pneumonia
aging
Paget’s disease
Lou Gehrig’s
influenza
cancer (lung, breast, mouth, throat, brain, lymphatic, etc)
cirrhosis of the liver
cholera
typhoid fever
yellow fever
scarlet fever
obstruction of air passage
black lung disease
small pox
chicken pox
mumps
hernia
dislocated joints
arthritis
hyperactive thyroid
appendicitis
muscular sclerosis
hemorrhoids
pimples, blackheads
deafness
blindness
crooked teeth
ruptured discs
torn muscles & ligaments



Observations:
1. Most people do not pray for certain conditions for which they somehow understand that prayer is completely ineffective (death, missing body parts, poor vision).

2. For conditions which are treatable or sometimes resolve without treatment, people do pray. If the condition is resolved favorably, the credit is given to the prayers. (Example: someone with breast cancer undergoes chemotherapy, radiation and/or surgery and is the subject of prayer. If the cancer is removed, then the credit goes to prayer.)

3. People who receive treatment with prayer have the same probability of outcome as people who receive treatment without prayer. This has been demonstrated by numerous studies (see article in Lancet). Occasional claims are made for the effectiveness of prayer in healing. In all such studies to date, the study is either flawed or the result is a case of self-improvement through stress reduction.

This observation can be easily confirmed by comparing the outcomes of people with incurable conditions (such as death, missing limbs).

This can also be confirmed by studying the relative health of various countries and regions. For instance, life expectancy and the infant mortality rate in Japan, Australia and Western European countries are considerably better than those in the U.S. Yet, Japan, Australia and Western Europe are far less religious than the U.S. Some studies show a majority or near majority of citizens in those countries being atheists. It can safely be assumed that they pray far less than Americans when it comes to health issues.

Still other countries that are even more religious than the U.S., such as the Philippines and Nigeria, have worse health conditions than the U.S. Within the U.S., the areas of the country that are more religious (Bible Belt states such as Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Texas) have worse health conditions that the states that are the least religious (such as Minnesota, Oregon, Washington, Vermont, New Hampshire).

Theory: there may be a negative correlation between religiosity and health. The variables that do correlate positively with health indicators include income (this is by far the most significant correlate to good health), education, quality of health system, cost of insurance and state expenditures on health.