Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-05-2011, 04:17 PM

Prof. Aliza Shenhar shines a much-needed light on the chauvinistic treatment of women in the Bible

Quote:

If we thought "woman of valor" was a poem that demeans women, Shenhar's book teaches us what every student of a religious school or yeshiva learned long ago: According to the Jewish sages, a woman has no existence or life without a husband. Here is a quote from the Sanhedrin tractate cited by Shenhar: "A woman is a golem [unformed vessel] and does not enter into a covenant other than with a man who makes her into a vessel. As it is written, 'For thy Maker is thy husband.'" Charming, isn't it?

Actually, the status of women was better at the beginning of Genesis. There we read that "male and female He created them," so ostensibly they are both equal. But in short order it's the woman who is to blame for original sin, whereas, according to Shenhar, she deserves to be lauded: "After all, what did she want, when all is said and done? To taste of the Tree of Knowledge, to expand her horizons, to learn." Just as Shenhar herself has been doing her whole life.

andrewcriddle · 08-06-2011, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Prof. Aliza Shenhar shines a much-needed light on the chauvinistic treatment of women in the Bible

Quote:

If we thought "woman of valor" was a poem that demeans women, Shenhar's book teaches us what every student of a religious school or yeshiva learned long ago: According to the Jewish sages, a woman has no existence or life without a husband. Here is a quote from the Sanhedrin tractate cited by Shenhar: "A woman is a golem [unformed vessel] and does not enter into a covenant other than with a man who makes her into a vessel. As it is written, 'For thy Maker is thy husband.'" Charming, isn't it?
.................................................. .....

In context the Sanhedrin discussion is about how important a husband is to his wife and how important a wife is to her husband.

Quote:

And R. Alexander said: To him whose wife dies, the whole world is dark for him. As it is written [Job, xviii. 6]: "The light becometh dark in his tent, and his lamp will be quenched above him." And R. Jose b. Hanina adds: Also his steps become shortened, as immediately it reads: "His powerful steps will be narrowed." And R. Abuhu adds. Also his advice is no more of use; as the end of the cited verse reads: "and his own counsel will cast him down."

In modern terms the pssage is more about disparaging singles than about disparaging women.

Andrew Criddle

dog-on · 08-06-2011, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Prof. Aliza Shenhar shines a much-needed light on the chauvinistic treatment of women in the Bible

In context the Sanhedrin discussion is about how important a husband is to his wife and how important a wife is to her husband.

Quote:

And R. Alexander said: To him whose wife dies, the whole world is dark for him. As it is written [Job, xviii. 6]: "The light becometh dark in his tent, and his lamp will be quenched above him." And R. Jose b. Hanina adds: Also his steps become shortened, as immediately it reads: "His powerful steps will be narrowed." And R. Abuhu adds. Also his advice is no more of use; as the end of the cited verse reads: "and his own counsel will cast him down."

In modern terms the pssage is more about disparaging singles than about disparaging women.

Andrew Criddle

You meant single women, right?

andrewcriddle · 08-06-2011, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

In context the Sanhedrin discussion is about how important a husband is to his wife and how important a wife is to her husband.

In modern terms the pssage is more about disparaging singles than about disparaging women.

Andrew Criddle

You meant single women, right?

No, both single women and single men.

Talmudic Judaism is consistently hostile to men who do not get married and hence fail in their duty to produce offspring.

Andrew Criddle

Minimalist · 08-06-2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Talmudic Judaism is consistently hostile to men who do not get married and hence fail in their duty to produce offspring.

Like Jesus.

Toto · 08-06-2011, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

Talmudic Judaism is consistently hostile to men who do not get married and hence fail in their duty to produce offspring.

Like Jesus.

1. Yes, the Talmud is hostile to Jesus

2. But - this idea, that Jewish men are called to marriage and procreation, has been used to argue that Jesus really must have been married. Marriage was the normal state for an adult Jewish man, so if Jesus had not been married, it would have been mentioned, or explained away.

3. Paul was evidently not married

Minimalist · 08-06-2011, 05:34 PM

Jesus, if there even was one, was long dead by the time the Talmud was written.

They were dealing with the idea of Jesus by that point, not the reality....if there was a reality.

dog-on · 08-08-2011, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

You meant single women, right?

No, both single women and single men.

Talmudic Judaism is consistently hostile to men who do not get married and hence fail in their duty to produce offspring.

Andrew Criddle

Perhaps, but let's be honest. There is a significant difference.

semiopen · 08-09-2011, 07:54 AM

There is the Woman as a sack of excrement issue.

Quote:

The sages of the Talmud customarily spoke with mockery and belittlement about women, even those women who were prophets -- Devorah and Chuldah. They degraded the women and claimed that the women deserve no respect and that their very names are disgusting; Devorah (bee) is the name of an insect and Chuldah (rat) is that of a rodent. Thus, too, they spoke of Avigail the prophet; when she was still married, the sages claimed, she hinted to King David that he would marry her. They interpreted her words to David, quoted in the Scriptures, "When the Lord shall have dealt well with my lord, then remember your handmaid," -- Rav Nachman said, "There is a folk saying: while women talk, they spin their own wool" [while a woman talks she watches out for herself; while Avigail talked to David to save her husband, she also made sure to hint to him that he should marry her after her husband dies] (Megillah 14b).
That is why they also described women in a disgraceful manner: "Woman is a sack of excrement and her mouth is full of blood, but all run after her" (Shabbat 152a).

It always amazes me that Rabbis can say this shit (no pun intended) whereas I would get killed.

Andrew might have a problem explaining all the shit (I couldn't resist) in there.

Minimalist · 08-09-2011, 09:42 AM

Quote:

It always amazes me that Rabbis can say this shit (no pun intended) whereas I would get killed.

Buy a funny hat and call yourself a "holy" man. You too, can get away with all sorts of shit!

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08-06-2011, 05:34 PM	#7
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Jesus, if there even was one, was long dead by the time the Talmud was written. They were dealing with the idea of Jesus by that point, not the reality....if there was a reality.

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