Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 10-22-2010, 01:21 AM

YHWH, Adonai, El Shaddai. Elohim

Did Greek speaking Jews add 'Kyrios' to that list of names of their god? Was it a name or a title?

spin · 10-22-2010, 04:50 AM

Adonai, El Shaddai, and Elohim are not names, and neither are "the boss", "she who must be obeyed" and "my better half". (Incidentally, Baal was not a name of a god, but a title, and Asherah was probable a title as well. Further incidentally, Stargate's "Lord Baal" was therefore tautological, as Baal meant "lord".)

Kyrios had the effect for the Jews of not using the name of god. In Hebrew the move was to refer to god as ha-Shem, "the name".

spin

semiopen · 10-22-2010, 06:18 AM

My sense is that Adon means lord while Baal is more like master.

In the bible the combination YHWH adonai is sometimes seen. This is pronounced adonai elohim in the synagogue. Theoretically it suggests the verse was written before YHWH was pronounced adonai.

Names_of_God_in_Judaism

Quote:

Substituting Adonai for YHVH dates back at least to the 3rd century BCE.[4] Passages such as:

"And, behold, Boaz came from Bethlehem, and said unto the reapers, YHWH [be] with you. And they answered him, YHWH bless thee" (Ruth 2:4)
strongly indicate that there was a time when the name was in common usage. Also the fact that many Hebrew names consist of verb forms contracted with the tetragrammaton indicates that the people knew the verbalization of the name in order to understand the connection.

The article doesn't mention Baal which is a little odd because there are prayers that use this. On the other hand, the characters with Baal in their names (like Jezebel) are dubious.

Regarding Hashem -

Quote:

Halakha requires that secondary rules be placed around the primary law, to reduce the chance that the main law will be broken. As such, it is common Jewish practice to restrict the use of the word Adonai to prayer only. In conversation, as many Jewish people, even when not speaking Hebrew, will call God "HaShem", השם, which is Hebrew for "the Name" (this appears in Leviticus 24:11). Many Jews extend this prohibition to some of the other names listed below, and will add additional sounds to alter the pronunciation of a name when using it outside of a liturgical context, such as replacing the 'h' with a 'k' in names of God such as 'kel' and 'elokim'.

This is a Rabbinic custom and doesn't make a lot of sense. Bozos like us trying to figure out the prohibition against saying God's name in vain.

Gawen · 10-23-2010, 03:39 PM

Here is an old list of the "gods" mentioned in the bible. What needs to be corrected?

Adrammelech - II Kings 17:31 - Sepharvite God.
Anammelech - II Kings 17:31 - Sepharvite God.
Ashima - II Kings 17:30 - Samaritan Moon Goddess.
Ashtoreth - I Kings 11:05 - Canaanite Goddess.
Baal - I Kings 18:19 - Canaanite God ("Lord") of fertility, vegitation, and storms.
Baal-berith - Judges 8:33 - A regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-peor - Numbers 25:03 - Moabite regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-zebub - Luke 11:19 - Philistine/Ekronian regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baalim - I Kings 18:18 - Canaanite Gods ("Lords"), a collective of the different aspects of Baal.
Bel - Isiah 46:01 - Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian God ("Lord").
Chemosh - I Kings 11:07 - Moabite war God.
Dagon - I Samuel 05:02 - Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian God of agriculture.
Diana of the - Acts 19:35 - Ephesian moon and nature Goddess, ("Divine/Brilliant").
Ephesians
Jehovah - Exodus 6:03 - Hebrew God
Jupiter - Acts 14:12 - Roman God (possibly derived from 'Zeus-pater', Father Zeus).
Lucifer - Isiah 14:12 - ("Light-Bearer")
Mercurius - Acts 14:12 - Otherwise known as the Roman God Mercury, God of communication and travel, messenger of the Gods...which is probably why Paul was called this at Lystra.
Milcom - I Kings 11:05 - Ammonite God
Molech - I Kings 11:07 - Ammonite God, also called Moloch, most probably Baal-Hammon of Carthage.
Nebo - Isiah 46:01 - Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean God of wisdom and writing, also called Nergal
Nabu. - II Kings 17:30 - Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and underworld God, also called Meshlamthea.
Nibhaz - II Kings 17:31 - Avites God
Nisroch - II Kings 19:37 - Assyrian God
Rimmon - II Kings 05:18 - Babylonian/Syrian storm God involved (as Ramman) with the Deluge, according to Hebrew texts; also known as Ramman/Rammon.
Succoth-benoth- II Kings 17:30 - Babylonian fertility Goddess ("She Who Produces Seed"), also known as Zarpanitu/Zerpanitum.
Tammuz - Ezekial 8:14 - Assyrian/Babylonian God
Tartak - II Kings 17:31 - Avites God

stephan huller · 10-23-2010, 04:43 PM

Here's something only a screwed up Jew could tell you.

Moses spelled backwards is haShem (Shem Jewish pronounciation; Shemaa Samaritan pronounciation)

The numerical value of the letters = 345

I am that I am = 543

Moses + I am that I am = 888

Also the name Mark in Samaritan Aramaic has the name numerical value as Moses and the Samaritans use this to reinforce that he was 'a prophet like Moses.' Leningrad MS marginal note Moses was the prophet of the period of favor, Mark the prophet of the period of turning away (slightly paraphrased)

stephan huller · 10-23-2010, 09:21 PM

Here's something else I discovered today. Marqe the Samaritan pays particular emphasis on the words of the Song of the Sea adding up to the number 8.

He says that in Hebrew the first word (אָז) 'THEN' = 8
He also notes that the LXX 'then sang' = 888

The purpose is to tie everything into some mystical interest of Israel coming out of the sea on the eighth day.

However I wasn't satisfied with just this explanation so I thought that the Hebrew would have to demonstrate the 888 principle too. I looked at the first few words and found nothing. But then I started thinking that it might be more appropriate to find the 888 at the end to signify the end of their journey. Sure enough I started counting backwards from the last letter and there it was:

וּ בַיַּבָּשָׁה, בְּתוֹךְ הַיָּם

40 + 10 + 5 + 100 + 6 + 400 + 2 + 5 + 300 + 2 + 10 + 2 + 6 = 888

I don't think this can be accidental and I think it goes back to the idea of baptism - especially the ritual referenced in Secret Mark representing the perfecting of humanity. The baptism in Secret Mark also occurs at the very time ancient Israel went into the sea (i.e. on the 'goings out of the Sabbath' Motzae Shabbat). I think it was connected to some ancient mystical tradition connected to the Song of the Sea as a baptism liturgy. I can't prove it. It is just what I suspect to be true.

stephan huller · 10-25-2010, 10:49 AM

I forgot to mention the reference in the Mimar Marqe (II.7) for those keeping score at home. Also I should mention that Marqe also references the Samaritan Targum's word for 'then' (borrowed from the Greek)

טטעַ

which has a value of 88 (= 70 + 9 + 9).

So to recap Marqe's proof for the number 8 being conencted with the crossing of the sea:

THEN (the first word in the Song of the Sea) in HEBREW = 8
THEN (ibid) in Aramaic = 88
THEN SANG in Greek (the first two words of the Song of the Sea) in Greek = 888

then my nonsense about counting backwards thirteen letters from the end of the Song of the Sea = 888

While this last proof may seem like a stretch for people who haven't read Marqe, his deconstruction of Pentateuch material is consistent with this methodology.

Toto · 10-25-2010, 10:51 AM

One question: in our decimal notation, 8 and 88 and 888 all seem to be similar. But the ancient Hebrews did not use a decimal notation. So why would they draw this connection?

stephan huller · 10-25-2010, 01:58 PM

Admittedly, you don't see the eights lighting up the page in their calculation but the interest is certainly there. The Gnostics certainly connected the Ogdoad to the name Iesous (which has a value of 888 even if the number is spelled out with a variety of letters). Marqe certainly takes an interest in the same phenomenon with the added interest of '88.' Did he originally write in Greek? I don't know.

Also the interest the number 49 was connected with the number 7 in the Torah (7 x 7). Who knows how they thought or imagined the letters in their head. Did they 'see' the numbers shine through as decimal notation even though they were described in letters? Again I don't know but the interest in the decad is pronounced in Philo and other early Jewish writings.

Who knows how they thought or how Marqe thought but the interest in the eight (as one better than the seven - related to the number 50 in relation to 7 x 7 is there). We have to guess at the inner workings of their imagination.

semiopen · 10-26-2010, 07:20 AM

I've never been convinced about the traditional Jewish explanation for 8 days for circumcision. Which is like seven days plus one for some reason.

The preoccupation with numbers seems like a kind of proof that there is no divine influence, since it all comes down to magic. Why would God care how many times the earth circles the sun or spins around?

10-22-2010, 01:21 AM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	The name of God YHWH, Adonai, El Shaddai. Elohim Did Greek speaking Jews add 'Kyrios' to that list of names of their god? Was it a name or a title?

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10-22-2010, 04:50 AM	#2
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Adonai, El Shaddai, and Elohim are not names, and neither are "the boss", "she who must be obeyed" and "my better half". (Incidentally, Baal was not a name of a god, but a title, and Asherah was probable a title as well. Further incidentally, Stargate's "Lord Baal" was therefore tautological, as Baal meant "lord".) Kyrios had the effect for the Jews of not using the name of god. In Hebrew the move was to refer to god as ha-Shem, "the name". spin

10-23-2010, 03:39 PM	#4
Gawen Contributor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Cylon Occupied Texas, but a Michigander @ heart Posts: 10,326	Here is an old list of the "gods" mentioned in the bible. What needs to be corrected? Adrammelech - II Kings 17:31 - Sepharvite God. Anammelech - II Kings 17:31 - Sepharvite God. Ashima - II Kings 17:30 - Samaritan Moon Goddess. Ashtoreth - I Kings 11:05 - Canaanite Goddess. Baal - I Kings 18:19 - Canaanite God ("Lord") of fertility, vegitation, and storms. Baal-berith - Judges 8:33 - A regional variation/aspect of Baal. Baal-peor - Numbers 25:03 - Moabite regional variation/aspect of Baal. Baal-zebub - Luke 11:19 - Philistine/Ekronian regional variation/aspect of Baal. Baalim - I Kings 18:18 - Canaanite Gods ("Lords"), a collective of the different aspects of Baal. Bel - Isiah 46:01 - Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian God ("Lord"). Chemosh - I Kings 11:07 - Moabite war God. Dagon - I Samuel 05:02 - Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian God of agriculture. Diana of the - Acts 19:35 - Ephesian moon and nature Goddess, ("Divine/Brilliant"). Ephesians Jehovah - Exodus 6:03 - Hebrew God Jupiter - Acts 14:12 - Roman God (possibly derived from 'Zeus-pater', Father Zeus). Lucifer - Isiah 14:12 - ("Light-Bearer") Mercurius - Acts 14:12 - Otherwise known as the Roman God Mercury, God of communication and travel, messenger of the Gods...which is probably why Paul was called this at Lystra. Milcom - I Kings 11:05 - Ammonite God Molech - I Kings 11:07 - Ammonite God, also called Moloch, most probably Baal-Hammon of Carthage. Nebo - Isiah 46:01 - Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean God of wisdom and writing, also called Nergal Nabu. - II Kings 17:30 - Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and underworld God, also called Meshlamthea. Nibhaz - II Kings 17:31 - Avites God Nisroch - II Kings 19:37 - Assyrian God Rimmon - II Kings 05:18 - Babylonian/Syrian storm God involved (as Ramman) with the Deluge, according to Hebrew texts; also known as Ramman/Rammon. Succoth-benoth- II Kings 17:30 - Babylonian fertility Goddess ("She Who Produces Seed"), also known as Zarpanitu/Zerpanitum. Tammuz - Ezekial 8:14 - Assyrian/Babylonian God Tartak - II Kings 17:31 - Avites God

10-23-2010, 04:43 PM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here's something only a screwed up Jew could tell you. Moses spelled backwards is haShem (Shem Jewish pronounciation; Shemaa Samaritan pronounciation) The numerical value of the letters = 345 I am that I am = 543 Moses + I am that I am = 888 Also the name Mark in Samaritan Aramaic has the name numerical value as Moses and the Samaritans use this to reinforce that he was 'a prophet like Moses.' Leningrad MS marginal note Moses was the prophet of the period of favor, Mark the prophet of the period of turning away (slightly paraphrased)

10-23-2010, 09:21 PM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here's something else I discovered today. Marqe the Samaritan pays particular emphasis on the words of the Song of the Sea adding up to the number 8. He says that in Hebrew the first word (אָז) 'THEN' = 8 He also notes that the LXX 'then sang' = 888 The purpose is to tie everything into some mystical interest of Israel coming out of the sea on the eighth day. However I wasn't satisfied with just this explanation so I thought that the Hebrew would have to demonstrate the 888 principle too. I looked at the first few words and found nothing. But then I started thinking that it might be more appropriate to find the 888 at the end to signify the end of their journey. Sure enough I started counting backwards from the last letter and there it was: וּ בַיַּבָּשָׁה, בְּתוֹךְ הַיָּם 40 + 10 + 5 + 100 + 6 + 400 + 2 + 5 + 300 + 2 + 10 + 2 + 6 = 888 I don't think this can be accidental and I think it goes back to the idea of baptism - especially the ritual referenced in Secret Mark representing the perfecting of humanity. The baptism in Secret Mark also occurs at the very time ancient Israel went into the sea (i.e. on the 'goings out of the Sabbath' Motzae Shabbat). I think it was connected to some ancient mystical tradition connected to the Song of the Sea as a baptism liturgy. I can't prove it. It is just what I suspect to be true.

10-25-2010, 10:49 AM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I forgot to mention the reference in the Mimar Marqe (II.7) for those keeping score at home. Also I should mention that Marqe also references the Samaritan Targum's word for 'then' (borrowed from the Greek) טטעַ which has a value of 88 (= 70 + 9 + 9). So to recap Marqe's proof for the number 8 being conencted with the crossing of the sea: THEN (the first word in the Song of the Sea) in HEBREW = 8 THEN (ibid) in Aramaic = 88 THEN SANG in Greek (the first two words of the Song of the Sea) in Greek = 888 then my nonsense about counting backwards thirteen letters from the end of the Song of the Sea = 888 While this last proof may seem like a stretch for people who haven't read Marqe, his deconstruction of Pentateuch material is consistent with this methodology.

10-25-2010, 10:51 AM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	One question: in our decimal notation, 8 and 88 and 888 all seem to be similar. But the ancient Hebrews did not use a decimal notation. So why would they draw this connection?

10-25-2010, 01:58 PM	#9
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Admittedly, you don't see the eights lighting up the page in their calculation but the interest is certainly there. The Gnostics certainly connected the Ogdoad to the name Iesous (which has a value of 888 even if the number is spelled out with a variety of letters). Marqe certainly takes an interest in the same phenomenon with the added interest of '88.' Did he originally write in Greek? I don't know. Also the interest the number 49 was connected with the number 7 in the Torah (7 x 7). Who knows how they thought or imagined the letters in their head. Did they 'see' the numbers shine through as decimal notation even though they were described in letters? Again I don't know but the interest in the decad is pronounced in Philo and other early Jewish writings. Who knows how they thought or how Marqe thought but the interest in the eight (as one better than the seven - related to the number 50 in relation to 7 x 7 is there). We have to guess at the inner workings of their imagination.

10-26-2010, 07:20 AM	#10
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	I've never been convinced about the traditional Jewish explanation for 8 days for circumcision. Which is like seven days plus one for some reason. The preoccupation with numbers seems like a kind of proof that there is no divine influence, since it all comes down to magic. Why would God care how many times the earth circles the sun or spins around?

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