seven8s

Since you link eternal with God further in your post, let me start my post from that position. The definition of eternal simply means, ‘lasting forever’. It definition contains nothing about a beginning. So where do we get this proposal that God has no beginning and no ending theory. Ah yes, God is a theory, a concept, an idea whose origin began in man, or woman, an individual. So God does have a beginning?

If there is a God, where does he begin and where does he end? Does he begin in me and end in you. What about that other person reading this post? Does God begin or end in her/him. And who determines where God begins or ends? You? Me? Equally, I can ask, propose that God begins and ends in me. And I would be right. Because my idea of God is my idea of God, not yours, now that I have determined where he begins.


Confusing...................do you consider perpetual (never ending), eternal (lasting forever) different? Next, which part of never ending, or everlasting is “ridiculously insignificant�? Both terms hold significant amounts of time to me.




Really? Then, the next time someone ticks me off, why don’t I just go out and shoot ‘em. Because after all, as you propose, if I believe that I am prone to nonexistence then this current existence holds no value, that means myself, or another has no value.

Many people believe that we are prone to non-existence, meaning they don’t believe in an after life, nor a reincarnated life, but that does not mean that their life holds no value, nor does it mean they don’t recognize the value of life. Their life holds immeasurable value, and obviously others lives hold value to them as well....................and who knows maybe they are right in the end, we are prone to non-existence. From my perspective, I can't lose either way.

First you have to define God. Then you have to show he did or didn’t created non-enduring things, and/or eternal things. Then you have to show that he does or doesn’t take pleasure in anything. That’s a hard nut to crack. Then you have to get someone to agree with you (group mentality); or do you? Perhaps, no obviously one can think for oneself, well, unless you’re into group mentality.

Well it would seem to me that if, as is often proposed, God creates everything, he equally creates temporal things and eternal things. Now the question becomes, does God create every thing? Answer that and you just may get a little closer to defining God.

You have to straighten out this subject, and all the above subjects in order to straighten out the rest of the this post.

There can be no small amount of independence, independence is independence.

Independence: adjective. 1. Free from outside control or influence. 2. Self governing. 3. Not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence. 4. Not connected with another; separate.

Independence is an inside thing. If God is fully independent and God exists within me, then I am fully independent. No one yet knows how the material universe came into existence, therefore we do not yet know why the material universe was created.

Now you have to prove that God is fully independent, because your last paragraph hinges on that supposition.

KrishnadasaAnudasa

all stages of karma (seeds) can be burn up instantly by the process of Bhakti yoga or serving God in devotion. whereas eternal damnation only allows one chance (one lifetime) you can approach God in devotion at any stage , your analysis is failed

KrishnadasaAnudasa

actually you wanted , pushed for it. Love means having that independence to do something else. and you did. thus now you are here

KrishnadasaAnudasa

ever been on commercial flight. unless your a terrorist. you have small independence. YOu go to the bathroom. Flirt, sleep, watch a movie but your not going to change the flight plans

newtype_alpha

The karma thing seems infinately more lenient than the Christian "eternal damnation" thing. It encourages you to do the best you can in this life, but it makes it clear that you don't have to be perfect because you'll still get another chance in the next life and you can work at it. Hellfire doctrine apparently depends more on the fear-mongering "You better do what we say before its too late!!!!" while Karma doctrine is a more easy-going, "If you blow it in this life, you're just going to have to pick up the pieces the next time around."

The only thing is, modern Christian hellfire doctrine has no concern whatsoever with good deeds or virtues. Their only concern is whether you believe/disbelieve. In essence it is a vaccuous and vain doctrine that doesn't really compare in any case since the payment method of the "debt" is vicarious in nature.

seven8s

Lets see, which part of unpardonable beginning, and unphantomable future didn’t you get? Could it be said that unphantomable could be eternal? Yes because eternal is unphantomable. In it's leniency, which translates into irresponsibility, it is equally, more destructive.

Oh so I don’t have to be perfect, just easy going, because hell if I blow it in this life I can just pick up where I left off next time. That’s rather convenient, wouldn’t you say? I wondered why they had such poverty in countries where these ideas originated. Doesn’t seem like any body is learning very many lessons, working it out. IOW, if the belief system is true, why are so many of these populations of origin living in 3rd world standards? Because it’s convenient for the powers that be to keep that populace in ignorance through old ideas, religions, belief systems that don’t work, are false.
Poverty begets poverty. Ignorance begets ignorance. Yes, one can work at it unphantomably and never obtain anything. It’s a very vicious cycle, well except for the powers that be. But lets not rile (educate) the masses, they just may turn on those powers that be. Then where would those powers that be, be? God forbid! With the masses?

The only thing it encourages is complacency.

Which part of “it is futile to resist� in my posted definition of karma don’t you understand? “It is futile to resist�, fear maundering, and fear maundering that works. There is no picking the pieces up next time, there is no next time. The next generation picks up the pieces of the sh** piles left behind by the last generation, because the last generation was too lazy (easy going) to question truth. Now the next generation picks up the Sh** of the last, working it out, unless of course the next generation buys into the same crap. Now you have generational, generational, generational, generational generational crap..................get the point! Equals 3rd world country. Equals poverty, immeasurable, generational poverty. Equals abuse, generational abuse.

Good deeds and virtues...................hmm, a little pretentious don’t you think?

Hmm, does that mean that all those nations that depend upon Christian charitable dollars is sending it back since it didn't exist in the first place? Wouldn't want any vacuous, vain virtues floating around tainting any body else.

Again, which part of “resistence is futile� don’t you understand. Sucks one in doesn’t it? Wouldn’t you say that’s kinda vacuous?

And as to the payment of debt being vicarious...................yes forgiveness ( a Christian idea, tainted by Christians) is hard to practice. It cancels out debt, and most want to hold onto debt, or pay with little vacuous, vain, virtues (pretentious pretenders).

seven8s

Obviously, you don’t understand English because you define at will which sadly defeats your argument. Those are liberties, I am free to go to the bathroom, sleep, flirt, or watch a movie, independent of any ones authority. And I don’t want to change the flight plan, that’s why I got on that plane in the first place.....................I agree with the flight plan, therefore I independently chose the flight plan.

Now since you have nothing of substance to present....................

newtype_alpha

You seem to be taking a fairly long walk down a logical short peer. In the first place, the beginning is not unpardonable or less there would be no point in telling you about it in the first place.

In the second place the "unphantonable" future doesn't fit the facts, because in a reincarnation system you know exactly what the future holds: more of the same. An eternity of "more of the same" doesn't seem like much of a problem.

You also seem unable to really pin down what it is about either veiw that is "destructive" or even how it is so. You say one is to lenient, or irresponsible, and thus more destructive. This would make sense if you believe the harsh and legalistic Christian hell was a better alternative, but you don't seem willing to say that either. So are you left with other than a vaccuous, universal complaint?

It's not hard to capitalize on old ideas and religious belief systems. In fact ANY belief system can be exploited by authoritarian powers to serve their needs. Communism is not a religion but plenty a political figure has lead his people like lambs to the slaughter, demanding adherence to the party line through propaganda and rhetorical nonsense.

Religion doesn't have the franchise on false beliefs, as you seem only too willing to demonstrate for us. :thumbs:

You obviously haven't been paying attention.

The system, in its pure essence, is to work progessively towards a better future outcome. Your view of this mystical "powers that be" smacks of conspiracy theory and you don't seem to have any support for it other than the same bland rhetoric we might expect from the likes of any other theological/political mudslinger.

And yes, one can work unphantomably and never obtain anything. And one can work phantomably and never obtain anything. What is the difference?

So your doctor tells you that as you get older your body is going to experience an increase of health problems such as prostate problems, infalmation of the joints, etc, and tells you that some of these problems are preventable and reducible if you eat a healthy diety, excercise and get regular checkups. Would you consider this fear maundering?

How about, "live a good life now or you'll have to make up for the things you do wrong in the next life." You consider that fear maundering as well?

You're a hairs breadth away from shooting your own argument in the foot. If you work to make the world better because you beleive you will be reborn in the next generation--even if that belief is false--would that not improve the lives of the next generation just by your having worked for it?
It's true, many third world countries are impoverished now because of a cycle of poverty and apathy that carried over from the previous generation. If you were really paying attention you would know that this has little to do with the conversation, let alone your assessment of this particular "Karma belief." People in Honduras do not believe in Karma or reincarnation, nor do people in Pakistan, Indonesia, El Salvador, Dominican Republic, Somolia, or in fact MOST of the Third World countries for whom your statement might apply.



I really have no idea what you're trying to say here but I suspect that neither do you.

I was referring to the Christian hellfire concept, which is "vacuous" in that it is lacking in substance and meaning. Does it? Seems like some would try and resist anyway just to see if it really IS futile. And in the end, if that turned out to be the case, they would merely end up with the understanding, "resistence really IS futile" and end up working with it instead of against it.

Maybe a really simple example might help: try and sneeze without closing your eyes. You can't do it; trying to sneeze with your eyes open is futile.
Try to walk from here to the nearest grocery store while holding your breath every step of the way. You can't do it; trying to walk long distances without breathing is futile.

The Karma thing has alot more substance than the Christian hellfire thing, in that the former in some way challenges the believer to test his beliefs while the latter teaches that testing your beliefs is the one thing you're NOT supposed to do.

Nope. But then I'm not really sure you know what the word "vacuous" actually means.

And with these words, you effectively shoot down your own argument. You're basically saying that forgiveness is the only thing that cancels out a debt, while virtue and atonement are vain and "vacuous." This seems to be a Christian value, and a fairly good illustration of why hellfire-doctrine is so silly to begin with and utterly indefensible.

newtype_alpha

You obviously (and intentionally) missed the point. If you wished to change the flight plan for whatever reason, you couldn't, because you do not have that liberty. If you wished to smoke a cigarette in the bathroom, you couldn't because you do not have that liberty. If you wished to rape the women you were flirting with in front of a six year old, you couldn't, because you do not have that liberty. You have independence to do anything you want, but you also have boundaries to that independence.

Freedom is the lack of limitations
Happiness is satisfaction with existing freedom
A happy man is free because he is free to do all that he wishes to do

seven8s

There was no point to miss, and so yes my dismissal was intentional

Of course I can. I just get on another flight. If I got on the original flight it is because I agree with it’s flight plan, why would I want to change it. Try harder.

Of course I can, I just have to enter the bathroom and smoke. Now, can the flight attendant ask, demand that I stop. Of course she/he can. And if I refuse to stop, can they arrest me, of course they can. Unless they know my intention before I enter that bathroom I am at liberty to go in there and smoke. Unless a fire alarm goes off, or unless they smell smoke, or some other traveller rats me out, I am at liberty to continue to smoke. Try harder.

Foolish...............of course I can. I can wish anything I want. As to raping a woman in front of a six year old; happens all the time, maybe not on airplanes, but they could try if they wanted to, might even succeed. In fact people can fly airplanes into buildings, unless someone cares to stop them they are at liberty to do what they want, as was proven on 9/11/2001. Try harder.

Foolish, how can I have independence to do anything I want, if I also have boundaries? I can’t do anything I want if there are boundaries. Society sets boundaries, civil law enforces them; self sets boundaries, self enforces them. Try harder.

Um, does that include wishing to rape a woman on an airplane in front of a six year old? Shooting yourself in the foot aren’t you?

Never mind don’t try harder, you are not succeeding very well. And as to your other post, piece of cake, but right now the Eagles lost, I’m sad and it’s time to go to bed. See you in the morning.

Well maybe the afternoon, I have errands in the morning.