Jeffrey Gibson

He's also not reported -- even in the wilderness "testing" stories of Matthew and Luke -- as having been an ascetic, either -- which is a point you continually miss.

Jeffrey

Amaleq13

Why is this relevant, let alone notable?

There appears to be no good reason to even wonder if Jesus took any vow of silence nor to think it relevant in any way. :huh:

How does a single point of similarity with ascetics constitute a "thread"?

mountainman

Hi Amaleq,

Thanks for your question.
Hopefully the following answer is helpful:

The issue of ASCETICISM is a fractal thing.
By this I mean it is multi-dimensional and
associated with a number of human processes
and cannot - as you say - be reduced to just
one single element or aspect.

Asceticism seems to be a broad subject area, because
it necessarily involves issues across diverse activities.
I have tried to provide some sort of indication that the
term 'asceticism' is some sort of "fractal thing".

It may involve some or all of the following (eg)

* vegetarianism,
* yoga,
* various forms of self-discipline,
* food intake
* drug independence (of various forms)
* perhaps seclusion (monastic or otherwise)
* perhaps issues of renunciation of the TV, newspapers, etc
* perhaps issues related to "consumerism", etc.
* a vow of silence is a form of ascetism, for example.
* prayer may also seen to be a form of ascetic practice
* some see walking, swimming, surfing, etc - exercise as ascetic
* meditation of various forms, traditions
* this list is not intended to be definitive or complete or prioritised.


SO these types of broad and "fractal like" issues
which may serve to define the separate sub-issues
related to any explication of "asceticism", the old
Pythagorean vow of silence being on one example.

Asceticism was an ancient model in the world.
It still is the same ancient model. Recently I saw
a documentary about "The Yogis of Tibet", and
these guys take the cake in the Y2K, but the
principals would not have varied for thousands
of years. Certainly hundreds BCE.

Thus Jesus is for some reason not depicted as
a full-on practicing ascetic adept, but some form
of abberation of an adept ascetic, almost like
one might make a parody of the tradition of the
Healing divinity Asclepius".

Who needs to worry about wine? Hic?
(or is intoxication of the divine?)

Who needs to worry about eating meat,
vegetarianism and/or Pythagorean Beans?
Bog in - dont wait!! A mess in the army?



Best wishes,


Pete Brown

Jeffrey Gibson

Can you please show us where Jesus is depicted as an ascetic of any kind, let alone an aberration of an "adept"?

Really? What leads you to say this? What is it within or about the Wilderness "testing story" -- the only place in the Gospel tradition in which Jesus, who is not portrayed there as divine (huios is anarthrous) and certainly not a healer, is spoken of as "fasting" (Matt. 4:2) or of "having eaten nothing" but notably not of his own choosing, but under the compulsion of the Spirit" (Lk. 4:2) - that you find that suggests or evokes or alludes in any way to traditions about Asclepius, let alone his (as of yet undocumented) practices of asceticism?

Please be specific. Parodies employ demonstrable and recognizable parallels. What are they here?

Jeffrey

mountainman

You provide the answer to your own questions:

What in fact is this "compulsion of the Capital S Spirit"?
Was he forced by an avenging angel?
Was he compelled by his own spirit?
Was he of sound mind and body?
Did he know what he was doing for 40 days?
Was he compelled by Law?
Was he compelled by Ink?

What compels an ascetic to retire to
the wilderness? DO you know Jeffrey?

Chief of all characteristics of ascetic practice
of any form is self-discipline - this is common
sense.



The stubs of documentary sources concerning
the traditions of sources to Ascepius that I have
gathered to date are available here

They seem quite palpable and authentic
when compared to any set of sources
for the Healer and Part-Time Ascetic Jesus.


The ascetic practices associated with the Healing god
Asclepius were just the standard world-over Indian
ascetic practices.

You will find "The Hymn of the Pearl", otherwise
preserved in the coptic "Acts of Thomas" partially
preserved in an Arabic work on Hatha Yoga.

And Jeffrey, if you have a look I have created a
number of threads concerning the identification
of parody in the NON CONSTANTINIAN texts.

Prove me wrong in any of those threads, about
the parody there, and I will consider myself in
your debt as a scholar. This applies to anyone
else.


Best wishes,


Pete Brown

Jeffrey Gibson

[QUOTE=mountainman;5077873]I do? And just what are these answers?

Have you read the story in both it's Matthean and Lukan versions, not to mention the Markan one? Have you compared it to what is said in Deut. 6-8, and especially Deut. 8:2 about Israel's testing in the wilderness? The answers to your questions are there.

I know about what some ascetics who have made a choice to "retire" to wilderness settyings have given as their reasons.

But this is irrelevant since have still not demonstrated that Jesus was an ascetic. And where is there any notion of Jesus making a choice to "retire" to the wilderness, let alone to retire there to actively engage in some sort of disciplining of himself, in the wilderness story?

But you haven't shown that the "fasting" of Jesus noted in the story is an exercise in self discipline, let alone one that Jesus consciously chose to undertake. What is it specifically in the story that in your eyes indicates that it is? Was the "being made to hunger that" Israel was subjected to and endured in its wilderness testing an exercise in self discipline? Was it something voluntarily undertaken?


They do? And even if they are, so what? Not a single one of them is, so far as I can see, a primary source. More importantly, not a single one of them presents Asclepius as an ascetic.

What specifically is your evidence that he was? Do the primary sources say that he was?

But even if what you adduce does present him as one, you still haven't made your case that the story of Jesus testing in the wilderness is a parody (a burlesque) of Aslepius as healer. In fact, you haven't even begun to make it. You have not yet pointed out what elements in the story of Jesus' wilderness testing clearly evoke, recall, or draw attention to the figure of Asclepius, as they would have to do if the story was a "parody", let alone how these elements consciously and recognizably satirize and hold the figure of Ascelpius up for ridicule.

Are you going to do this or not?

Jeffrey

Amaleq13

Again, a single point of similarity with ascetics does not appear to suggest that one should assume Jesus was being depicted as some sort of ascetic. Instead, and especially given that Jesus is depicted as explicitly denying he is an ascetic like John, it suggests that "ascetic" is an inappropriate descriptor to apply to Jesus as depicted in the Gospels.

IOW, Your fundamental ASSUMPTION appears to have no basis in the text.

This comment makes your earlier objection to my reference to parody ring quite hollow, Pete.

mountainman

My fundamental assumption is about asceticism.
About what we know of the history of the practice.
Or perhaps exploring what we do not know.

You should be aware now that my postulate
is certainly not based on anything written by
the authors of the (ahem) gospels.

My fundamental assumption it is true, is drawn
from materials not contained in the (ahem)
gospels but material drawn from antiquity
relevant to the purported time.

Ancient history should not be ignored.


Best wishes,


Pete Brown

Amaleq13

What you are doing is wasting everyone's time.

mountainman

Matthew 6:16
[ Fasting ]
"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do,
for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting.
I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

Matthew 6:18
so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting,
but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father,
who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Matthew 4:2
After fasting forty days and forty nights,
he was hungry.

Matthew 17:20
19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
20He replied,
Some manuscripts
21 But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.

The therapeutae and priests of Asclepius were
healers, and ascetics. See Philo. Surely you
understand that Ascepius is mythologically the
son of Apollo.

Best wishes,


Pete Brown