Sheshbazzar

Probably. although I don't think they used the word 'fucking' quite so often back then.

outhouse

Thats the problem, there were no "real" Jewish authorities.



There were to many different sects with different beliefs and adherance to values. Hellenistic Judaism would not have had the same adherance.



So now we understand some Proselytes were viewed as Jews.

We also understand there were different definitions of what Judaism was in the first century. There was no clear cut line to said definition.

semiopen

The word Hellenized might be used too frequently in this thread.

The Jews were totally hellenized around the time of Alexander the Great.

There is a spin related to Hanukkah, that the Hasmonean war had something to do with hellenization, where it was the Greek guys against the good guys. Both sides were more or less equally hellenized.

The use of Tefillin for example is quite possibly a Greek innovation.

Probing the Earliest Origins of Tefillin (phylacteries) Part I

This seems like a good article from a religious guy, it doesn't specifically support my Greek origin comment. You don't see any writings about tefillin or archeological finds until "hellinistic" times.

Tangled Up in Text: Tefillin and the Ancient World

If something pisses off the Rabbis its got to be worth considering. Certainly it reinforces the fact that whatever was going on in Hanukkah wasn't exactly black and white.

The known history of Tefilin seriously fucks up any pro oral torah from Moses arguments - not that they need this specific kick in the balls to fuck them up.

Maimonides thirteen principles of Judaism are really dubious. Like I said above, it is hard to imagine a sane person agreeing with them all.

outhouse

Do you think the real Jews born and raised in Israel under oppression felt this way?


Take the Zealots from Galilee, They were oppressed by Romans and the hellenization they brought, and held fast to Jewish tradition.


While your correct hellenization had taken place earlier, its influence had different context between different sects.

The fall of the temple was due to the cultural opposition to oppression of hellenistic people.


Christianity itself, is more or less a hellenistic spin off of Judaism, due to the cultural split and division of the people.

Sheshbazzar

Are you suggesting that there was no Jewish Temple, no attending Priesthood, and no recognized and authoritative SANHEDRIN

One of the Seven Principals of THE NOACHIDE LAWS was;

7. Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice.

Think Jewish people, no matter what the sect, were unaware of this?

And would not have a authoritative Court system in place in the Nation of Israel?

And that its long standing and major official Decisions would not be well known and remembered?

The DECISIONS had been made once and for all. They were known.

Laws do not cease to exist simply because the Courthouse is destroyed.

And the sects that did not establish Courts fell into lawlessness and rebellion.

There are still Jewish Courts of Law, beit din, exercising religious authority and justice as they are commanded.

And the rulings they produce are based upon the judges understanding and interprtation of The Laws,
subject to knowledge of what rulings were passed by the Great Sanhedrin, and subsequent beit din.

Duvduv

Could you move away from vulgarities and simply clarify exactly what you are asking about concerning tefillin?
Can you imagine how many Jewish men would consent to obey the wearing of relatively expensive tefillin for one or two hours daily at least, 6 days a week, check the parchments, straps and boxes every few years, and everything else it entails if someone just thought them up in the 1st century?

I can guarantee you that once such a proposal would be promulgated, most communities would not be interested in such a man-made concept and it would have been totally forgotten in history. And whatever did exist would not be standardized among Jewish communities for 2000 years, from Morocco to Iraq, from Poland to Italy. But the fact is that any tefillin that are deemed useable from any communtiies can be worn by Jews from any communities.

outhouse

The Saducees ran the temple and corrupt Jewish government, and for the most part the corrupt Sanhedrin.

Their views and adherance were different then the Zealots of Gaililee, or the Essenes. And the Pharisees had different more strict views where much of our current understanding comes from due to the sheer lack of first century written literature.


Your also missing those of the hellenistic Jewish Dispora, not under any part of the Jewish governement.

Sheshbazzar

While The Temple stood, and The Great Sanhedrin was in place, The Laws they passed were in effect.
And the Law of the land is the Law of the land no matter how corrupt may be the politicians that run it,
its citizens are still expected and required to obey The Laws.

Here in the U.S. politicians are often notoriously corrupt, sometimes we have a 'packed' Supreme Court.
But a Law passed is still the Law, and is to be obeyed whether one likes the politicians that promoted and brought it into being or not.
(Roe vs Wade) Until or unless the Law is changed, The Law prevails.

Republicans have different views than Democrats, Libertarians have another view. That does not mean they get to establish rulings that are contrary to the Laws that are on the books.

No doubt the views of the U.S. Government are different than those of 'The Aryan Nations' or 'The Earth Liberation Front'
Should we, because there are such voices of dissent in our nation turn or backs on our government and Nation and its established institutions and Laws to promote one of these factions, enemies of the politicians, 'enemies of The State' ?

Those of the Jewish Diaspora, wherever they went, and wherever they settled, mindful of rule #7 established Beit Din
(Greek 'sanhedrin') in each of their congregations. Keeping to and enforcing the same rulings as The Great Sanhedrin, and ruling on local religious and civil matters under their jurisdiction.
The Beit Din of any local Jewish Synagogue is descendant from this source, and its authorized judges make their decisions based upon their knowledge of the Laws of Torah, known Decisions of The Great Sanhedrin, and the rulings of subsequent Beit Din.
There has never been a time that Jewish society as a whole has been without its Beit Din. This mitzvah being essential to the continuance of the Jewish people through all the ages, even more than having a Temple or being a recognized Nation with a piece of land.

Yes, sometimes there are differences in Jewish opinion or conduct. Just as the judges in our nations present Court systems, after looking at the same laws and past cases, will sometimes issue quite different rulings. But the fundamentals of the Law stand fast. And the Jewish people one people.

semiopen

As you state, I was more or less talking about the Hellenization that is given as a cause of war between the Hasmoneans and whoever they were fighting.

For example The Maccabees and the Hellenists Hanukkah as Jewish civil war.

is a discussion similar to the one advanced by the reformed Rabbi on my cruise ship. It seems like twaddle; they discard the bullshit Talmudic explanation and substitute a dubious reading of Maccabees.

My proposal was to celebrate the invention of money, but I guess that is too easy to understand.

I hadn't considered the Hellenism inherit in the Roman occupation, which at least confirms my suggestion that we be more clear on the definition of the term (or whatever I was trying to say).

Hellenistic_Judaism

Kind of interesting to see the quite reasonable first paragraph disintegrate in the second, like the deterioration of relations comment.

semiopen

I think my language is OK.

I wasn't asking a question, simply pointing out that tefillin seems to be relatively recent

You are making a typically Rabbinic response which might be OK if you were teaching a Sunday school class but is silly in this context.

I'd suggest you read my links and respond citing reputable sources.

http://toldotyisrael.wordpress.com/2...teries-part-i/ which I quoted before -

Schismatic is a strong word - the owner was Kosher enough to give the thing to the Geniza rather than throwing it away.

The archaeological record also shows serious differences with the Talmudic understanding of tefillin and actual tefillin that are only hundreds of years older than the Talmud. If the Rabbis had the exact oral instructions from Moses, how could this be?

As an amulet or charm like thing, tefillin seems to fit well with a Babylonian, Persian, or Greek origin. I can't imagine any way that these existed during first temple times.