arnoldo

Basically, your stating the same argument that the unbelievers hurled at Jesus while he hung on the cross that "If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross so we can all believe." Human nature being what it is no amount of signs and wonders will convince anyone. God has given all sorts of miracles in the old testament and yet Israel frequently backslid. For example when Moses took the Jews out of Egypt they witnessed many miracles and yet once out in the wilderness they worshiped a golden calf and wished to return to Egypt. The question of human suffering is also a mystery however basically it's a result of Adam's disobedience which allowed death and sin to enter the world. Jesus, as the second Adam, obeyed God and redeemed mankind from the curse of sin and death. Israel rejected Jesus as the Messiah and so the age of gentiles (church age) began, however this age is rapidly closing and the kingdom age is approaching. The return of Israel to it's homeland is a great sign and fulfilment of bible prophecy. The Bible also seems to suggest that Israel and the Jews will never again be forced to leave their land again. Ironically most of the "peace process" in the Middle East involves Israel giving up part of it's land which is ridiculous.

Sheshonq

Preaching deleted.

Please justify your claims about the concept of double prophecy, without assuming your own conclusion.

makerowner

If that were true, then why do any signs or wonders at all? But I don't think it is true. If I saw a guy walk on water, turn water into wine, and come back from the dead, I'd seriously have to consider his claims to divinity. I haven't seen it, and I don't trust 2nd- or 3rd-testimony from biased, anonymous authors transmitted to us by biased copyists, that contradict each other.

Again, if the miracles don't do anything, then why does God do them? And why is it that miracles only seem to happen in times and places where there is no capacity to investigate for natural explanations?

This makes no sense, for various reasons. In your story, God created Adam and Eve. God created the serpent who tempted them. God knew A & E's characters (since he knows everything); ergo, God is responsible for the Fall. A & E had no knowledge of good and evil, so punishing them and all of their descendants for disobeying is incredibly unjust. (Not to mention that punishing someone for the sins of their ancestors is also unjust.)

It's funny how in every time, people think that the end is near. Also, it seems Jesus wasn't quite so fond of the gentiles as you think: "These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, 'Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' ."(Matt. 10:5-6 RSV)

arnoldo

Nevertheless, the Jews are back in their homeland, despite numerous attempts to defeat them militarily. Now israel is being forced to give up it's land for peace exactly as prophesied would happen.

Sheshonq

Except that the majority of Jews live outside Israel. Oops.

There is no such prophecy.

Jack the Bodiless

Nobody knows exactly when the Book of Joel was written, but it was probably not finished until the time of the Babylonian Exile or its aftermath. It is plainly referring to the re-emargence of Israel after the Babylonian Exile. I have warned you about this sort of blunder before.
We DO know when the Book of Ezekiel was written: during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, who was responsible for the Babylonian Exile. Guess what Ezekiel is referring to?

Sugarhitman, you've had plenty of opportunity to find an actual prophecy of the modern re-emergence of Israel and you have STILL failed at every attempt.

Jack the Bodiless

No, he didn't. The OT is fiction.
Nope.
Which, strangely, nobody here seems to be able to find in the Bible...
Actually, the Bible suggests that the Jews would never again be forced to leave their land after the return from Babylon.

This didn't work out.

Johnny Skeptic

On the contrary, there is not any credible evidence that God's land promise to Abraham and his descendants has ever happened. Genesis 17:8 says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Do you understand that Scripture? It says "ALL of the land of Canaan" as "an EVERLASTING possession." There is not any credible historical evidence that Jews have ever occupied ALL of the land of ancient Canaan. Genesis 17:8 does not say anything at all about Jews occupying PART of the land of ancient Canaan.

How do you define the word everlasting?

Will you please tell us why God allowed Titus to kill 500,000 Jews in Palestine in the first part of the 2nd century? If your answer is because the Jews had not obeyed God, I will ask you why God allowed Jewish babies to be killed. They certainly did not disobey God.

Why would God care where modern Jews live, especially since the majority of them have rejected Jesus?

If modern Jews had been able to occupy parts of Palestine on their own, your arguments would be better, but that was not the case. The Jews had military and financial help from other countries. Anyone who has enough power can steal land from other people. What is admirable about that? Are you suggesting that people ought to love God because he helped Abraham steal land from the Canaanites, and helped modern Jews steal land from the Palestinians?

Johnny Skeptic

No, that is to be expected if God did not actually promise to give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of Canaan like the Old Testament says he did.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo. You don't really care what the Bible says. If the New Testament said that the same number of eyewitnesses saw Jesus injure and kill people with supernatural powers, and that Jesus said that God will send everyone to hell, Christians would reject the same quality of evidence that they accept now because of their emotional perceived self-interest. On the other hand, I would not accept the Bible even if it said that God will send everyone heaven for the same reasons that I do not accept it now, but I would hope that the claim was true. Following are some of the reasons that I do not accept the Bible now:

1 - The Gospel writers were anonymous.

2 - The Gospel writers almost never revealed who their sources were.

3 - The Gospel writers almost never claimed that they witnessed miracles.

4 - The Gospel writers almost never revealed who their sources were.

5 - Matthew and Luke borrowed a good deal from Mark.

6 - It impossible to be reasonably certain how many people saw Jesus after he supposedly rose from the dead.

7 - Today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. There are not any good reasons for anyone to assume that it was any different back then.

8 - I would still question why God injures and kills people and innocent animals with hurricanes. Unlike you, it is not my position that doing some good things justifies injuring and killing people and innocent animals, or setting up circumstances that cause people and innocent animals to be killed.

9 - I would still question God's desire to send skeptics to hell for eternity without parole.

10 - As much as I would like to rubber stamp everything that God does in order to go to heaven, my morals are not up for negotiation, and I am not able to do anything about that. The only possible solution for me would be if God explained to my satisfaction why he does what he does. It is my position that a loving God, a God who I would admire and accept, would provide me with explanations for his behavior before I made up my mind whether to accept him or reject him, especially if spending eternity in heaven and hell were at stake.

So there we have it. While my beliefs would be consistent no matter what the Bible promised, Christians will only accept promises that they believe will ultimately benefit you. Christians have replaced logic and reason with emotional perceived self-interests.

Hypothetical arguments are frequently excellent tools for revealing invalid arguments. Fundamentalist Christians frequently use them when they feel that it suits their purposes to do so. C.S. Lewis' "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" is a good example.