hatsoff

Hey all. I've been reading a bit on Johannine textual criticism, but I've been unable to find pertinent information regarding P66 and P75. I've seen dates ranging from 125 CE all the way to 300 CE. Can anyone help me figure this one out?

Thanks!

Steven Avery

You likely have seen this site as a starting point ?
http://www.kchanson.com/papyri.html
Catalogue of New Testament Papyri & Codices 2nd—10th Centuries

The super-early dates generally go to the views of the late Carsten Peter Thiede , and a couple of folks in agreement with him. They are generally not accepted in scholarship circles, at times the rejection is emphatic. There may be a thread on it here, and if you put his name in (with and without the Peter) Google, you get up to speed on the controversy.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

hatsoff

Does anyone know where these P66 and P75 papyri were found? I've heard it was somewhere in Egypt, but I can't find any clear reference. And how do we go about dating them? Is it some sort of chemical analysis, or do we just go by the physical and/or linguistic characteristics?

Steven Avery

On the locale...

From the previous link.
http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/greek/papyri.html#Bod
These Greek and Coptic documents were discovered in Egypt, probably at Pabau, near a Pachomian monastery.

This paper combines some geography with the 'hide from Athanasius'
theory of Nag Hammadi
http://shakinandshinin.org/Gnosticism-DLNT.html
Further, it has now come to light in the wake of the Nag Hammadi discoveries that the Bodmer Papyri (known also as the Dishna Papers) were found only about three miles from the site of the Nag Hammadi discovery. The Bodmer Papyri (now in the Bodmer Library in Geneva) contain not only very important NT texts but also other apocryphal, spiritual and theological writings. Presumably these texts too were buried by Pachomian monks.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Julian

I don't know about p66 but regarding p75 I can say that the dating was done paleographically, a somewhat inaccurate technique. Here is a lot more information about it: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/Man...apyri.html#P75

The homepage of that extrememly useful site is here: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/

Julian

hatsoff

Whoa....what's this "B" manuscript, now?

andrewcriddle

B is the symbol given to Codex Vaticanus a 4th century manuscript now in the Vatican library.

B is generally regarded as having a particularly accurate text of the NT. P75 is strikingly close textually to B.

Andrew Criddle

Ben C Smith

I have a list of major manuscripts with identifications and locations posted on my site which might be useful. It is reasonably complete for the papyri (with respect to the gospel record, not the epistles or other works), but woefully incomplete for the uncials; it does, however, list major players like B, and includes a rough list of contents so far as the gospels are concerned.

Ben.

Julian

Andrew's answer is correct but I feel like giving you just a bit more info. A huge amount of importance is givien to the papyri manuscripts because they are frequently far earlier than the codices. However, the danger is that papyrus generally only survives in Eqgypt, giving us a somewhat skewed view of early exemplars.

Manuscripts are generally divided into categories. They are: Papyri, Uncials, Minuscules, Church fathers, Lectionaries. Generally in descending importance as listed here.

Anyways...

The most important manuscripts that we have are ×? also known as Aleph or 01, A also known as Alexandrinus or 02, B also known as Vaticanus or 03. Of special interest D^ea or 05 which is a diglot that has caused a lot of discussion.

Julian

ETA: Or you could just check out Ben's site listed in his cross post. BTW, Ben what is that symbol you use for the papyrus? It looks like a small ball of string.

Roger Pearse

The other problem is that they often display 'wild' texts. The main stem of transmission is through the corrected copies made in major cities, and such copies often include corrections. But the papyri seem to be largely private copies, uncorrected by the scribe against the original, so can drift quite a bit. Thus a 'wild' reading is not indicative of much; a papyrus with a mainstream reading is indicative of an early date for that reading.

All the best,

Roger Pearse