Magus55

The word trinity didn't exist when the Bible was written. The concept of the Trinity is well supported however.

Heathen Dawn

Not a good example, since Mormons are Trinitarian; what takes them outside the pale of mainstream Christianity is that they’re polytheists as well. JWs are a better example of non-Trinitarian Christians (or Christianoids. I’ve had enough of Anitra’s thread...)

trendkill

Sure. I don't see what that has to do with what I wrote.

I disagree.

Mormons do not believe the three are one in substance.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
In Mormonism, the Father created the Son.

Heathen Dawn

OK, thanks. That makes their godhead tritheistic.

Fortuna

Dear Jbernier,

Actually, this was really a light-hearted attempt on my part to both understand and demonstrate the validity of the trinity concept in very simple terms. But, as you have brought up an interesting and relevant issue to the table, it should be explored.

But, first ,there is one point in your post which I must address.

Actually, I disagree with this statement. The "mathematical idiom" in this, or any other topic, is not the "highest form" of expression, but is merely a shorthand, albeit a more precise shorthand in many cases. As an example, let us consider Einstein's statement ;
This statement merely says that mass and energy are of an equivalent substance, proportional to one another by the speed of light squared. In other words, if we were to transform one into the other, c^2 is the transformation factor. We can further infer that, because c is such a large value relative to human experience, (and c^2 even larger), that we can potentially derive a lot (again relatively speaking) of energy from a process that could (even inefficiently) transform M into E.

Now, on to your issue. Let us define G' as "the form of god" as perceived by humans, or more precisely, a relative perception of that which is god. Let us assume that there exists a transformation function f(G') such that this form could be translated into that which truly is god. This is reasonable using literally Plato's allegory of the cave, inthat shadows are certainly transformable into their essences, given that certain factors are known.(i.e. We could determine the distance to an object from its shadow by knowing its cross sectional size, or we could determine its size by knowing the distance. Further, by parallax and either of the above, we could determine the other to the accuracy of our measurements )
This leaves the idea that the individual manefestations of god, are in fact instances of god. An instance, by necessity, requires an instantiation. And an instantiation, by neccesity, must take place in a time domain.(Interestingly, traditional ideas of god put him outside of space-time domains, but that is another baguette, lets stick to the material given). Thus, these instatiation are time dependant. Given this, we must assume that each instance has a relative start time, and perhaps a relative end time. This implies that J,F and HS can be expressed as functions of time(t), more precisely, of a time interval (dt). By implication, if the parts of the form of god exist in a time domain, then the form of god must be necessity also have a time domain dependency.
So, from a strictly trinitarian point of view, we could now say ;

J(f(dt1) + F(f(dt2)) + HS(f(dt3)) = f(G',dt )

This is really a shorthand way of saying, the total essence of god (from the human perspective of observation of the form) is equal to the total of the instances of those manefestations in the time domain of the observers (humanity).

What is intersting about this, is that it essentially says the same thing as the simple expression, with the addition of the time domain and the form transform.

We can also see that if we were to solve this by integration, several solutions are generated, but for now lets consider only the boundary conditions. If dt1 = dt2 = dt3, we have the same expression as above. It is only true when f(G',t) = 0. If we assume that dt1 != dt2 != dt3, then we have a value that is non-zero only during dt1, dt2, or dt3, but is zero for all other values.

The second solution might be saying that G is nonzero only when a manefestation of the form is perceived in the time domain. And, the philosophical interpretation of that is apparent, isn't it ?

miata

We have heard talk enough. We have listened to all the drowsy, idealess, vapid sermons that we wish to hear. We have read your Bible and the works of your best minds. We have heard your prayers, your solemn groans and your reverential amens. All these amount to less than nothing. We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your mouldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a this year's fact. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years.
~ Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

Chili

Guilt.

Evoken

Hehehe

But you know that won't be enough for him Chili/Amos.

miata

Society would not tolerate legislation declaring that the theory that the sun circles the earth be given equal time with the theory of a heliocentric solar system; it should not pay attention to the equally preposterous notions of "scientific creationism"
~ Robert Ornstein

Pseudoscience known by its supporters as "scientific creationism" is strict Genesis literalism masquerading as science in a cynical attempt to bypass the First Amendment and win legislatively mandated inclusion of particular (and minority) religious views into public school curricula... Intense debates about how evolution occurs display science at its most exciting, but provide no solace (only phony ammunition by willful distortion) to strict fundamentalists.
~ Stephen Jay Gould

GIGO we will get out of our mind what we plant there.

trendkill

Although certain religions are quite adept at producing guilt, I don't think methods of psychological manipulation necessarily qualify as miracles. :P