Free Indeed

We can merge the personification posts with God's nature if we like, that kind of goes along together.

DancesWithCoffeeCups

Don't make us work too hard. We're old.

I'll move this to BC&H for textual discussion. If you would like to discuss the personification, you can start a new thread.

DWCC

Back Again

Since I requested the move, let me summarize the open textual questions.

1. Is there Koranic support for the Trinity and specifically the Holy Spirit. I think this has been answered and, so far, not yet disputed.

2. How much biblical support is there for a personified Holy Spirit. Free Indeed has provided English verses in support. I have suggested that the personification might be a literary device and I do not read Greek well enough to propose translation bias.

3. There was other discussion about how old the Trinity doctrine is and why, specifically, it was incorporated and strengthened by interpolations. I am curious about theological reasons supported with scriptural evidence.

DeeEss

I've heard that and I've also heard that it's supposed to be the holy ghost who goes down to earth when god wants to see what's going on. I don't have any 'proof' (for want of a better word) for that though.

I keep thinking it was an attempt to appeal to the pagans of the time but, I don't have anything to base that on other than supposition and the claiming of pagan gods, holidays and holy sites as their own.

I apologize if I posted this in the wrong place. I'm new to the forums and this seemed like an appropriate spot.

Hmmmm. I hadn't considered that. I guess it's another case of people trying to make the bible fit their theories.

DeeEss

I was asking about both really. I know there's passages where the holy ghost is supposed to be mentioned but, I don't know if that was something that was decided later or not. Even then, his role is not exactly made clear.

No Robots

"Holy Spirit" in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

gdeering

The point being, as usual, there is a huge gap between the theologian and the ordinary christian. Who is right and how do we prove it? They have been mystifying each other for nearly 2000 years.

The Holy Ghost is that bird right? The bird that impregnated Mary? Maybe someone from the UK can make it clearer?

GD

Toto

I'm not from the UK, but the Holy Ghost is symbolized by the dove.

The problem is the tension between monotheism and the variety of supernatural agents that Christians believe in. The compromise for the western Catholic Church was to say that there are three separate parts of the godhead, but all are of the same substance, so they are in effect three aspects of the same divinity. Eastern Christians do not follow this, and see the son and the Holy Ghost as separate entities of a similar substance. This theological difference underlay the Great Schism.

aa5874

I find that discussion of the nature of the Holy Ghost to be futile since even if believed to exist, no physical evidence can be obtained.

However, it is interesting to note, that it is only Paul, as far as I can recall, of all the authors of the NT and church writers who directly claimed to have the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

No Church writer or other author of the NT claimed that they personally spoke in tongues.
.

The Pauline writer and the author of Acts placed much importance on the Holy Ghost since the Holy Ghost was the Promised Divine Power from Jesus to demonstrate the Power and Divinity of the ascended Jesus, yet for some unknown reason, no Church writer after the Pauline writer had any personal experiences or did not write about any personal experiences with the Promised Divine Power called the Holy Ghost, not even the author of Luke wrote about any personal experience of this awesome Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost after not having any personal influence on any Church writer with respect to talking in tongues and performing miracles suddenly becomes of vital importance supposedly after 300 years.

Ignatius, Clement, Justin Martyr, Municus Felix, Tatian, Theophilus, Athenagoras, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Eusebius, Jerome did not write about any personal experiences of the Holy Ghost, they did not claim to speak in tongues, only Paul.

The importance of the Holy Ghost in the 4th century and the Pauline writings may be linked, since only the Pauline writers claimed personal experiences with the Holy Ghost.

This is Paul on the important gifts of the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 14.8

Mat

No there is no Qu'ranic support for the Trinity as the Qu'ran wholly rejects any Trinitarian concepts of God see Ayats 5:73, 4:171. However the Qu'ran does refer to the Ruh Al-Qads(sp) normally translating as Holy Spirit but in Islam of course the Holy spirit is the Angel Jibril/Gabriel.