RAFH

That claim about the effects on Egypt come as a direct conclusion from the Flood narrative itself. It was intended to drown all life other than that on the ark and is stated to have done so.

That would include the effects on Egypt. Whatever Egypt there was at the time of the Flood, which is why its important to establish the date of the Flood.

RED DAVE

Dave, Dave, Dave. Are you reading what you're writing?

We are talking about a civilization that existed continuously from 3000 BC onward. Here's a good place to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Egypt

We're not talking about a gap: we're talking the absolute destruction of this civilization; and then, it was reconstructed, by a handful of people from another culture, with no loss of language, religions, learning, etc. If this had happened, it would have involved the death of over 2 million people.

Ancient Egypt never vanished. It never stopped once it started. There are a few people today, Copts, who speak a language that is the descendant of Ancient Egyptian. And the language is used as he liturgical language of the Coptic Church (sort of like Latin in the Catholic Church).

If you're interested in how archaeologists study all this, buy a good intro to archaeology, and you'll see how these things are investigated. Ask and ye shall be given sources.

You can start here.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=68469

RED DAVE

spin

It wasn't a difficult question, praxeus. When was the flood according to the bible? I have put forward a relatively straightforward ballpark figure based on biblical data, hoping it would help you answer the question and I've even supplied a little of the background language to help you interpret the text, so that fewer problems can arise in the process. It's unlike you to lack conviction this way.

When was the flood according to the bible?


spin

Dave Reed

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
That would include the effects on Egypt. Whatever Egypt there was at the time of the Flood, which is why its important to establish the date of the Flood.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++

As I mentioned at the beginning of the thread, I simply cannot date much
of anything in the Old Testament, and feel good about it. If the EXACT
date of things was important, then it would be plainly stated. In some
cases it is. But for the most part, the historical, or parable lessons of the Bible far out weigh the date(s) of the event.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
We are talking about a civilization that existed continuously from 3000
BC onward. Here's a good place to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Egypt

Thanks once again for the valuable link. It looks like it could be closer to
4000 BC after I read it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
We're not talking about a gap: we're talking the absolute destruction of
this civilization; and then, it was reconstructed, by a handful of people
from another culture, with no loss of language, religions, learning, etc.
If this had happened, it would have involved the death of over 2 million people. If you're interested in how archaeologists study all this, buy a
good intro to archaeology, and you'll see how these things are investigated
Ask and ye shall be given sources.

You can start here.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=68469
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++

I am going to be an Egynius at this rate, but that's good. I guess the years
previous to about 4000 BC will have to remain a mystery though. Anyway,
we still have the same dilemma, if we can't go back far enough. I wish people would stop putting so much faith in the 4500 years back. We have yet another problem with that date. There are several trees which have been dated as older than 4500 years. These have been verified by core plugs, and ring counting. (pretty tough to dispute)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah_(tree)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++
Not to negate the direction that this thread has taken, but I just want
to recall that there is the issue of the contradiction between existence
and dating of the Flood and the uninterrupted history of Egypt.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++

I agree. If you can't push the date back, you don't have much of a case.

RED DAVE

And then there's geology. There is absolutely no evidence for a world-wide flood, ever. Local floods, recurring floods, disastrous floods, rises in the ocean level, etc., sure. But a world-wide flood, no.

Here's a good place to start on the impossibility of a world-wide flood from a geological point of view.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

RED DAVE

spin

The writers of the period were quite concerned with dating and that would be clear if you looked at what they wrote. Bishop Ussher didn't pull the age of the world out of the air. He used all those plain dating indications in the bible. The writers used formulae like this:

Gen 11:12
W)RPK$D XY XM$ W$L$YM $NH WYWD )T-$LX
And Arphaxad lived 35 years and Shelah was born.

Then Gen 11:14 says

And Shelah lived 30 years and Eber was born.

Gen 11:16, And Eber lived 34 years and Peleg was born.

And so on.

The writers didn't have the concept of tables available to them otherwise they could have made it even clearer for you. As it is they have such dating indications which stretch from Adam to Joseph's death in Egypt. All you have to do is a series of simple additions as the writers did. They filled chapters with such information and here you are apparently unable to take advantage of what they wrote. It was obviously important to them otherwise they would not have been so organized about it. Why isn't it important enough for you to consider?

You won't find too much that is historical in the bible, though there is a lot that is simply ahistorical, and if you want lessons there are many places to turn. The choice of the bible for lessons is a cultural dictate. In another country it might be the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita.

But discussion about history and lessons is a smokescreen to change topic from the dating indications clearly delineated in the bible, which is after all a part of the fabric of this thread. It's not difficult to deal with, so why don't you deal with it if you are partaking in this thread?


spin

Weltall

What historical lessons would these be? The creation of Life, the Universe and Everything in six days? The Garden of Eden? The Hebrew slavery in Egypt and the subsequent Exodus? Their conquest of Canaan? The life of Jesus? In case you weren't aware, none of these events are historical. Well, there's debate on the last point but not in any way that helps theists.
Even if you can push the date back, you still have no case, you simply eliminate one problem (Egypt and others not noticing their own destruction) and add another (the can of worms that opens up when you start trying to weasel out of what the bible says plainly) without accounting for the mountains of evidence that no global flood happened or the complete lack of evidence that it did.

Dave Reed

All you have to do is a series of simple additions as the writers did. They filled chapters with such information and here you are apparently unable to take advantage of what they wrote. It was obviously important to them otherwise they would not have been so organized about it. Why isn't it important enough for you to consider?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++

Perhaps one could "take advantage" of date information, AFTER they've
learned what's really important. Suppose I did have the exact date of some
event in Genesis. Will this make me a better person, or help me spiritually,
or in any way improve my life? It's just data. The most important things in
the good book go far beyond this. (sorry for sounding like your ex Sunday
school teacher)

Weltall

I agree, if by 'really important' you mean to acknowledge that most of the stories in the bible are made up. However, if you want to continue furiously retreating from your assertion of Noah's flood as fact, I can provisionally grant you that for purposes of discussion.
It might lead you to start examining your faith critically. Most people here would see that as a good thing. After all, you should test your faith to see if it can stand up to scrutiny (it doesn't but that's another issue).
Uh huh. One thing your sunday school teacher never talks about are all the nasty little things your god has done. Tell me, what was so bad about 99% of humanity and all but one (or seven) pairs of all animal life (or at least, the rough 'kind' grouping that resists all attempts at logic) that God couldn't just wave his magic wand and make it all better? Why is infinite punishment for finite crimes somehow 'just'? Who in the hell punishes people for something their ancestors did? Why did Jesus curse a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season?

spin

People are not bound by your theories of what's important in a book for people.

Will reading the bible make you a better person? Why do you insist on changing the topic. If you don't want to post in this thread then don't, but dating derived from the bible is a part of the thread topic, like it or not.

Perhaps it will.

Learning more about the bible might improve your life.

Actually, you're not correct. It is just data if nothing is done with it. And you are trying to make it just data. Why are you so bothered to do that?

The only way you might sound like an ex Sunday school teacher -- I fortunately didn't have one -- is due to your picking and choosing of what's good for other people. We are talking because we can choose for ourselves. Perhaps finally your position may prove to be right, but I don't think you're in any position to know, if you are unwilling to look at what can be made of the data.


spin