Magus55

If 4 different people are at a car accident site, when the police questions them, you will get varying views of what actually happened, possibly very different. Its just another sign that the Bible isn't fabricated. I'd be quite suspicious if all the apostles wrote the exact same thing - that would lead me to believe they copied off each other.

Demigawd

Ok, I'll give you that. But in return I want you to consider the Psalmist was just another human being who craved vengeance against slights he perceived as being committed against his own people.

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God wanted the Bible to be truth, not lies to sound good.

And you base this belief in the supposed creator of this vast universe's wishes how?

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Maybe the Psalmist would have hid his true feelings about punishment, but God wanted his true opinion to be shown.

Granted, but this flies in the face of your earlier assertion that the Psalmist was offering his own opinion, versus the dictates of the supposed creator of this vast universe. You yourself somehow found his sentiments odd enough to state they were his own "opinion" despite your prior claims the bible was the inerrant word of God.

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And since when do I care about my credibility amongst atheists?

Ever since you decided to post on this message board.

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I could be the most credible person in the world, but the fool will still say in his heart, "There is no God".

Or a fool may still say in his heart, "There is the God as depicted in traditional mythology. I was told He is thus; therefore, he must be." Why not?

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I will never convince you, nor am I trying to. I'm presenting the truth as revealed to me through the word of God and the Holy Spirit. The rest is up to you. Whether you accept it or not is your choice and nothing I say or do will ever change that.

Been there, done that as a fundamentalist christian. I found it profoundly lacking because such a stance relies upon thinking you have all the answers and everyone else who proposes an opposing view is "a fool". Just who is arrogant here, again?

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I am just a messenger.

Don't quit your day job.

Roland

Yes, but if three people reported virtually the same thing and a fourth reported something almost totally different, it would lead one to question the viability of that fourth person's account.

Let's assume you are right and that Jesus actually said every single thing attributed to him in the four gospels. How could three people somehow come up with roughly the same quotes, while a fourth came up with entirely different quotes? Weren't the other three listening when he was saying them? Didn't Matthew, Mark or Luke find any of Jesus' famous "I am" speeches important enough to include in their accounts?

What about John 3:16?

What about "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but my me"?

In fact, MOST OF JESUS' most important quotes show up in John's gospel and not the others. I think that should give any reasonably thoughtful person pause.

Roland

Here are just some of the quotes that appear only in John:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

3.16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. <

4.13 Jesus said to her, "Every one who drinks of this water will thirst again, 4.14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

4.24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

5.24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

6.35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.

6.40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

6.47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 6.48 I am the bread of life.

6.51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 6.54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 8.12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

8.31 Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, 8.32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

8.58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

10.9 I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.


14.6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

15.5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Tod

Why would god's creation become "defective"? You can't use the free will defense when speaking of genes.

Vinnie

The difference between GJohn and the Synoptics is more like this:

Eyewitness one: the toyota ran the red light and hit car..

Eyewitness two: a fighter jet came swooping down from the sky launching missiles at the car...

These errors are anything but the vaguaries of memory.

Vinnie

Vinnie

The response will be original sin.

Magus55

Well, I think Jesus did consider John His "highest" apostle. Maybe Jesus knew John was more reliable, and trusted him with the more important information. Matthew, Mark, and Luke were also primarily just for the purpose of discussing Jesus' life and ministry. John's gospel wasn't. It had a different purpose. Both reasons could account for why John's gospel is more significant.

Roland

First of all, these quotes were uttered in public settings; they were not told to John in confidence.

So did Matthew, Mark and Luke independently sit down and decide each would only discuss "Jesus' life and ministry"? How believable is that?

If YOU had heard Jesus utter those amazing statements in John, would YOU have failed to include them - regardless of the "purpose" of your account?

No, I'm afraid the most rational explanation is that John made up what He felt Jesus would or should have said, to fit his own personal theology - indicating that the gospels are basically well crafted works of theology and not historical accounts of anything.

rmadison

[smackdown]

Another analogy sometimes used by apologists is comparing the resurrection contradictions to differing accounts given by witnesses of an auto accident. If one witness said the vehicle was green and the other said it was blue, that could be accounted for by different angles, lighting, perception, or definitions of words. The important thing, they claim, is that they do agree on the basic story--there was an accident, there was a resurrection.

I am not a fundamentalist inerrantist. I'm not demanding that the evangelists must have been expert, infallible witnesses. (None of them claims to have been at the tomb itself, anyway.) But what if one person said the auto accident happened in Chicago and the other said it happened in Milwaukee? At least one of these witnesses has serious problems with the truth.

Luke says the post-resurrection appearance happened in Jerusalem, but Matthew says it happened in Galilee, sixty to one hundred miles away!

http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/stone.html

[/smackdown]

Damn Magus - I'm still waiting for something original from you.

Have you been using these same, utterly worthless arguments the entire time you've been here?

Hey, since we're on the topic of bible verses, can you tell me the difference between 2 Kings 19 and Isaiah 37?

I keep getting this weird, Deja vu feeling every time I read one or the other...