JoeWallack

JW:
In Gospel Fictions:

Randel Helms describes on Page 96 interesting parallels between the supposed resurrections of Lazarus in "John" and Osiris in The Pyramid Texts.

Let's look at the complete story in "John":

11: (RSV)
"[1] Now a certain man was ill, Laz'arus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
[2] It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Laz'arus was ill.
[3] So the sisters sent to him, saying, "Lord, he whom you love is ill."
[4] But when Jesus heard it he said, "This illness is not unto death; it is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by means of it."
[5] Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Laz'arus.
[6] So when he heard that he was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was.
[7] Then after this he said to the disciples, "Let us go into Judea again."
[8] The disciples said to him, "Rabbi, the Jews were but now seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?"
[9] Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any one walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.
[10] But if any one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him."
[11] Thus he spoke, and then he said to them, "Our friend Laz'arus has fallen asleep, but I go to awake him out of sleep."
[12] The disciples said to him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."
[13] Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep.
[14] Then Jesus told them plainly, "Laz'arus is dead;
[15] and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."
[16] Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with him."
[17] Now when Jesus came, he found that Laz'arus had already been in the tomb four days.
[18] Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off,
[19] and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them concerning their brother.
[20] When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, while Mary sat in the house.
[21] Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
[22] And even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you."
[23] Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
[24] Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
[25] Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
[26] and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
[27] She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, he who is coming into the world."
[28] When she had said this, she went and called her sister Mary, saying quietly, "The Teacher is here and is calling for you."
[29] And when she heard it, she rose quickly and went to him.
[30] Now Jesus had not yet come to the village, but was still in the place where Martha had met him.
[31] When the Jews who were with her in the house, consoling her, saw Mary rise quickly and go out, they followed her, supposing that she was going to the tomb to weep there.
[32] Then Mary, when she came where Jesus was and saw him, fell at his feet, saying to him, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died."
[33] When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled;
[34] and he said, "Where have you laid him?" They said to him, "Lord, come and see."
[35] Jesus wept.
[36] So the Jews said, "See how he loved him!"
[37] But some of them said, "Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?"
[38] Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb; it was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
[39] Jesus said, "Take away the stone." Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, "Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days."
[40] Jesus said to her, "Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?"
[41] So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, "Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
[42] I knew that thou hearest me always, but I have said this on account of the people standing by, that they may believe that thou didst send me."
[43] When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, "Laz'arus, come out."
[44] The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with bandages, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go.""

Regarding Possible Sources for this story, since it priMarily involves an Impossible claim we can be certain that it is not historical. So is the Source primarily from Jewish writings, non-Jewish writings or a new Composition (pun intended)?

In "The Gospel According To John" by Raymond Brown, one of the best known Christian Bible scholars of recent times, Brown Ignores possible sources for the Lazarus story outside of Jewish writings illustrating the traditional Failure of Christian Bible scholarship to try and be Objective when looking for Possible sources.

Let's first summarize the Main points of the Lazarus story in "John":

1) Lazarus is dead (He's dead, Jim).

2) Jesus appeals to God.

3) Jesus orally commands Lazarus to Live.

4) Lazarus is resurrected.

Now let's look at the complete story in The Pyramid Texts:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/pyt/pyt54.htm

and see which of these main points we can find:

"1975b. thou art asleep, [thou art awake]; thou art [dead (lit. thou landest)], thou art alive."

1) Osiris is dead.

"1973a. The gods in Buto were filled with compassion, when they came to Osiris N.,
1973b. [at the voice of we]eping of Isis and at the lamentation of Nephthys,
1973c. at the wailing of these two spirits
1973d. [for this Great One who comes forth] from the DÈ?.t."

This appears to be a difference in main points. In The Pyramid Texts (TPT) the Gods are alerted to the Krisis by the women and not the ResuRector.

"Utterance 620.
1753a. To say: I am Horus, Osiris N., I will not let thee sicken.
1753b. Come forth, awake, I will avenge thee."

3) Horus orally commands Lazarus to Live.

"1980a. How beautiful indeed is the sight, how agreeable is the view, the sight of Horus,
1980b. in that he gave life to his father, [in that he offered] satisfaction to Osiris,
1980c. before the gods of the west!"

4) Osiris is resurrected.

So in summary, 3 of the 4 main points I identified in "John" can be found in TPT. The fourth has some similarities, getting the attention of a Higher authority. The same main points can also be found in the Elisha resurrection story in the Jewish Bible. To see which may be a better Possible source for "John" let's see how the details match up next.

Keep in mind though that as JP Holding points out, just because there is a surface similarity the underlying support may be much different. There's a big difference between sacrificing a Bull and sacrificing a Man. One spends all day laying on the ground, chewing on grass and staring at cows while the other spends all day laying on the sofa, chewing on chips and staring at sports.



Joseph

MYTHOLOGY, n.
The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from the true accounts which it invents later.

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andrewcriddle

One problem here is that the story of Lazarus is about someone dying and being resurrected and brought back to his previous pre-death life.

The account of Osiris in the Pyramid texts, involves the dead Osiris being resurrected by his son Horus in the afterlife. Osiris does not in any known version of the Osiris myth return to his pre-death life.

IIUC part of the context of this Pyramid text is that just as Osiris is resurrected in the afterlife by his son Horus, so the dead Pharaoh (identified with Osiris) is resurrected in the afterlife by his son the new Pharaoh (identified with Horus).

IMO they are very different stories.

Andrew Criddle

vsop44

Did you notice that phonetically Osiris and Lazarus are not that far apart . I recently read the book the pagan Christ by Tom Harpur , where he endeavours to prove that any event in the life of Jesus was actually plagiarized from the ancient Egyptians mythology .

Jedi Mind Trick

Why does a lack of underlying similarities or total one for one agreement in these comparisons seem to be conclusive that there was no barrowing to people like Holding?
In my admittedly non-expert opinion, I can see that these pagan myths could have served as a very loose template for something completely new. The religious mind is very creative you know.

JoeWallack

JW:
Right. In Egyptian mythology Osiris, who was dead, was brought back to Life, even though he was still dead, so he wouldn't otherwise appear to simply be dead thousands of years later, while in Christian mythology, Lazarus, who was dead, was brought back to Life, even though he would soon be dead again and appear to be simply dead thousands of years later. Yes, let's not Cross the Religious streams. "It would be bad". Important Savings tip. Thanks Egon.

JW:
As El-Kharzarus said in the classic "Wrath Of Khan", "Indeed I have."

Now let's look at Names used in the Lazarus story that are External to Jesus and the basic Gospel story. The "author" would be freer to choose these names as she wouldn't be limited to what was already used in other parts of the Gospel:

1) Lazarus

Lazarus is the resurrectee in "John". "Osiris" is the resurrectee in TPT.

In a transparent attempt to salvage some small strip of supposed objectivity, here is a link to the Possible source from the Jewish Bible:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/r...2&byte=1459007

Let's compare "Lazarus" and "Osiris" Phoenicianetically:

La za rus
O si rus

In Parts:

1) "La" vs. "O"

Both have vowels but different vowels. Plus one also has a consonent. A mediocre match by itself.

2) "za" vs. "si"

Both have vowel and consonent. Similar consonent sounds. Different vowels. A better match than 1) but not a great match.

3) "rus" vs. "rus"

Looks like a great match but I never cease to be Amazed at just how different "rus" and "rus" could be according to an Apologist.

In whole:

Lazarus
Osiris

Both consist of three short syllabulls. "Lazarus" though could have a first syllabull of either "La" or "Laz". A decent match.

When Skeptics try to improve the match by modifying Osiris with something like "El-Osiris" or "El-Azar" without giving any good justification it seems to be a better measure of the Skeptics' scholarship and objectivity than matching of a possible source.

The resurrectee in the Jewish Bible is unnamed. A Possible source of "Lazarus" from the Jewish Bible though is:

"Arise, go to Zar'ephath, which belongs to Sidon, and dwell there."

Compare:

Lazarus
Zar'ephath

Not a bad match itself.

In the classic "The Gospel According To John" by Raymond Brown, Brown Ignores these Possible sources and only suggests the Lazarus story in "Luke" as a Possible source (other than history, of course).



Joseph

"Laser" - Bright Light causing temporary blindness.

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JoeWallack

JW:
Continuing with Names used in the Lazarus story that are External to Jesus and the basic Gospel story:

1) Bethany

Bethany is the Place of resurrection in "John". According to Randel Helms "Annu" is the name of the Place in the TPT where the dead Osiris lived. "Beth" is Hebrew for "House". So the semi-sanitized Frannustein creation would be "Beth-Annu" or house of Annu.

Let's compare "Bethany" and "Beth-Annu" Phoenicianetically:

Beth a ny

Beth A nnu

In Parts:

1) "Beth" vs. "Beth"

As my Son's Tai Kwon Doe instructor would say, "Puhhhfect!".

2) "a" vs. "A"

Again, puhhhfect, uh, perfect.

3) "ny" vs. "nnu"

Right consonent, wrong vowel. But NY is full of "Nu"s.


In whole:

Bethany
Beth-Annu

Both consist of three short syllabulls of corresponding length.

The Lazarus story in "Luke" does not give a Place.

So, let's see how the Names compare for the major pieces of information:

1) Who

Lazarus
Osiris

2) What

Resurrection
Resurrection (Andrew has pointing out though that technically these are
different Types of resurrections)

3) Where
Bethany
Beth-Annu

4) When

Unspecified
Unspecified

5) How

With Words
With Words

With Apologies to downtown Raymond Brown, which looks like a better bet for a Possible source so far for the Lazarus story, Osiris or Elijah?

Let's look at lesser details next.



Joseph

MAGIC, n.
An art of converting superstition into coin. There are other arts serving the same high purpose, but the discreet lexicographer does not name them.


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