Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magdlyn · 08-25-2004, 12:37 PM

Paul, 1st century CE:

Christian Bible 1 Corinthians 13:12--

Quote:

For now we see through a glass,
darkly; but then face to face: now I know in
part; but then shall I know even as also I am
known.

Plato, 360 BCE:

Phaedo--

Quote:

Socrates proceeded: I thought that as I had failed in the contemplation of true existence, I ought to be careful that I did not lose the eye of my soul; as people may injure their bodily eye by observing and gazing on the sun during an eclipse, unless they take the precaution of only looking at the image reflected in the water, or in some similar medium. That occurred to me, and I was afraid that my soul might be blinded altogether if I looked at things with my eyes or tried by the help of the senses to apprehend them. And I thought that I had better have recourse to ideas, and seek in them the truth of existence. I dare say that the simile is not perfect-for I am very far from admitting that he who contemplates existence through the medium of ideas, sees them only "through a glass darkly," any more than he who sees them in their working and effects.

Oddly, the phrase in question is shown in quotations in the Plato. Why? Was this a phrase in usage before his and Socrates' time? Then again, I assume Greek did not have such a thing as quotation marks. So why put them in?

Peter Kirby · 08-25-2004, 01:46 PM

I dimly remember this coming up on a YahooGroup with the finding that the Greek doesn't match like the English does...the translator of Plato borrowed from the KJV. It'd take me a while to look up the Greek of Plato, though (again).

best,
Peter Kirby

Nice Squirrel · 08-25-2004, 02:08 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but during the translation of the KJV, wasn't the translation meant to err a bit on the poetic side as long as it didn't stray from the closest possible meaning. I understand that's how phrases like the poetic "holy of holies" were chosen over the more the less poetic "holiest".

Mathetes · 08-25-2004, 03:04 PM

Actually, a more literal translation of Paul would be "through a mirror, in a riddle".

Toto · 08-25-2004, 03:34 PM

interpretation of 1 CORINTHIANS 13

Quote:

. . .

A good example is the phrase through a glass darkly, which centuries of English speakers have interpreted as peering through a clouded windowpane. But when the King James translation was made, a glass was the standard word for a mirror, since the new mirrors of that time were like ours, with a silvered coating applied to the back of a sheet of glass. The original Greek text has dia spektrou, or by means of a mirror, but Greek mirrors were made of highly polished brass which have a weak and imperfect mirror-image, so the figure has an entirely different thrust. Now you see yourself as if you were looking in your brass mirror, but THEN you will have a perfect mirror-image of yourself, you will see yourself as you really are. Of course there is an error in this too, since mirrors reverse right and left, but in the mirror of Heaven you will come fact to face with your real self, see yourself truly as you really are. It is singularly difficult to translate this passage from the Greek, since modern mirrors do give the impression of perfect reflection, and the original meaning is lost.

Magdlyn · 08-26-2004, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nice Squirrel

Correct me if I am wrong but during the translation of the KJV, wasn't the translation meant to err a bit on the poetic side as long as it didn't stray from the closest possible meaning. I understand that's how phrases like the poetic "holy of holies" were chosen over the more the less poetic "holiest".

OT: Well, which is less poetic to you, Squirrel?

I understand holy of holies, lord of lords, or song of songs is a Hebrew colloquialism. I also understand lots of translators translate sense by sense intead of word for word.

Back to the specific topic- thanks for the input, guys. I am mildly surprised that this phrase has been translated so loosely, and that Plato was translated by way of the KJV! WTH?

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08-25-2004, 01:46 PM	#2
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	I dimly remember this coming up on a YahooGroup with the finding that the Greek doesn't match like the English does...the translator of Plato borrowed from the KJV. It'd take me a while to look up the Greek of Plato, though (again). best, Peter Kirby

08-25-2004, 02:08 PM	#3
Nice Squirrel Contributor Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Death Panel District 9 Posts: 20,921	Correct me if I am wrong but during the translation of the KJV, wasn't the translation meant to err a bit on the poetic side as long as it didn't stray from the closest possible meaning. I understand that's how phrases like the poetic "holy of holies" were chosen over the more the less poetic "holiest".

08-25-2004, 03:04 PM	#4
Mathetes Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spaniard living in Silicon Valley Posts: 539	Actually, a more literal translation of Paul would be "through a mirror, in a riddle".

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