Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Richbee · 03-15-2006, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farrell Till

Tyre was certainly more than a city in Old Testament times.....

This verse very clearly shows that Ezekiel's prophecy was directed at the "renowned city" and not to some kingdom.

Just for the record......

Ezekiel 28 (New International Version)

A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre

1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre,
'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel?
Is no secret hidden from you?

4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.

5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.

6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,

7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.

8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.

9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.

10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

11 The word of the LORD came to me:

12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=28&version=31

Farrell Till · 03-15-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

Tyre was more than a city in the Old Testament times, it was a Kingdom with a King.

In any case Johnny, you and Farrell Till are refuted. (again and again, on any forum, any time and place!)

The original Kingdom of Tyre was destroyed and is no more. The original City and it's [sic] glory was destroyed and never restored, The city of Tyre was one of the most prominent commercial cities in the Mediterranean in ancient times.

Today, nothing of its supremacy remains.

This part was answered in detail in #3243379 /#23 and #3243644 / #25."

Quote:

Richbee:
The Judeo-Christian Scriptures predicted the desolation of Tyre: that God in His righteous judgment would destroy this city because of its people's sins against Him.

Yes, and as I have shown in my first two replies to Richbee, the prediction was that Tyre, the city, would be completely destroyed and never built again. The prophecy obviously failed.

What was "its people's sins against [Yahweh]"? Presumably, the people took delight in Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of Jerusalem.

Quote:

Ezekiel 26:1 In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of Yahweh came to me: 2 Mortal, because Tyre said concerning Jerusalem, "Aha, broken is the gateway of the peoples; it has swung open to me; I shall be replenished, now that it is wasted." 3 Therefore, thus says the Yahweh God: See, I am against you, O Tyre! I will hurl many nations against you, as the sea hurls its waves. 4 They shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down its towers. I will scrape its soil from it and make it a bare rock.

That was some "sin," wasn't it? Anyway, that the prophecy was directed against a city known as Tyre is evident from the next verse.

Quote:

5 It shall become, in the midst of the sea, a place for spreading nets. I have spoken, says Yahweh God.

The city of Tyre--contrary to what Richbee claims further along--was located on an island off the coast of Lebanon, so it was appropriate to refer to it as becoming a place for spreading nets "in the midst of the sea," but that description would not fit Richbee's theory about a "kingdom" on the mainland.

Quote:

Richbee:
The Scriptures provide significant insight into the nature of the Hebrew God, Yahweh, His attributes, and why He is to be feared and honored.

I can dispute only one detail in this statement. The scriptures do indeed described Yahweh as a petty, vindictive tribal god, who threw temper tantrums, ordered the extermination of entire non-Hebraic tribes, including even children and babies, and was every bit a god to be "feared" (if he had actually existed), but the matter of "honor" is something else. I can't understand how anyone can read the Old Testament and then say that the Hebrew god Yahweh should be "honored."

The character of Yahweh as depicted in the Old Testament, however, is irrelevant to whether his prophecy against Tyre was fulfilled. If Richbee cares to take issue with me on what I said above about the character of this god, I will be glad to debate it with him.

Quote:

Richbee:
The Kingdom of Tyre was once the commercial center of the ancient world, a market place of nations, and a city renown for its beauty and elegance. This city was described as a very wealthy and luxurious place where commerce revolved and business flourished.

And this has what to do with the prophecy against Tyre? If the prophecy was that the city would be destroyed and never be rebuilt, it doesn't matter whether it was a commercial city renowned for its beauty and elegance or that it was a "very wealthy and luxurious place." Anyway, I think that Richbee miscued in what he cut and pasted above from whatever his source was, because it said that Tyre was a city.

Quote:

Richbee:
In the book of Isaiah (23:8), its merchants are called princes, and its traders are designated as "the honorable of the earth." It is apparent that these individuals held tremendous status and power, and that their city was one of the most illustrious and prestigious in the known world.

And what does this have to do with whether the prophecy was that a city known as Tyre would be completely destroyed and never be rebuilt? If that was the essence of the prophecy, then it doesn't matter how "illustrious and prestigious" it may have been. Readers should also notice again that Richbee lost sight of his opening premise, i. e., Tyre was a kingdom and not a city, because the source that he was cutting and pasting from said that Tyre was one of the most illustrious and prestigious [cities] in the known world."

Quote:

Richbee:
As we look into the Judeo-Christian Scriptures we find that the people of Tyre became very prideful and vain.

Even if this is true, so what? What does it have to do with whether the prophecy meant that a city named Tyre would be destroyed and never be rebuilt? Richbee seems to be laying down a smoke screen by cutting and pasting from some source on Tyre in hopes that sounding "scholarly" will camouflage from readers his inability to provide supporting evidence that Ezekiel's prophecy was fulfilled.

Quote:

Richbee:
In the prophecy of Ezekiel, the Lord says, "...your heart is lifted up, and you say, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, in the midst of the seas,' Yet you are a man, and not a god" (28:2).

Yes, it sat in the midst of the seas. That is more proof that the prophecy was spoken against the island stronghold and not some mainland "kingdom."

Quote:

Richbee:
According to the book of Ezekiel, the purpose of God's judgment was to humble the people of Tyre and to judge their wickedness. God revealed that though man can say he is a god, he is powerless against the sting of death and the righteous judgments of God.

And this has what to do with whether the prophecy was that the city of Tyre would be destroyed forever, never to be built again?

Quote:

Richbee:
The book of Ezekiel is dated 593 B.C. to 570 B.C., and was written by a Hebrew prophet named Ezekiel who identifies himself as "Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi." The prophesy [sic[ against the city of Tyre begins in chapter 26 of this account, where Ezekiel receives a vision from God in which He reveals the destruction of Tyre because of its people's depravity. God's purpose was to humble the people of Tyre, and pronounce His judgments on those who chose to make themselves gods in their own sight. Ezekiel declares seven prophesies in chapter 26:3-21:

Notice that once again, Richbee, cutting and pasting from a source that seemed not to know the difference in the noun prophecy and the verb prophesy, forgot his original premise, which was that Ezekiel was prophesying that a "kingdom" named Tyre would be destroyed, and slipped up again by calling Tyre a "city." Anyway, what he said above has what to do with whether the prophecy meant that a city named Tyre would be destroyed and never again be rebuilt?

Quote:

Richbee:
Ezekiel 26:3-21

"Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up [Prediction 1].

The reference to the sea causing its waves to come up is another indication that Ezekiel was prophesying against the island stronghold.

Quote:

Richbee:
And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers;

This too is more evidence that the prophecy was directed against the island stronghold, because it is unlikely that an entire mainland kingdom, as Richbee has theorized, would be walled.

Quote:

Richbee
and I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock [Prediction 2].

Does Richbee think that Ezekiel was predicting that all of the dust on the surface of an entire mainland "kingdom" would be scraped off to make the entire mainland area like the "top of a rock." The top-of-the-rock part of this statement fits the description of the island on which the city of Tyre had been built, because it was basically an off-shore rock on which the Tyrians had built a fortified city.

Quote:

Richbee:
It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea; it shall become plunder for the nations [Prediction 3]...

Note the reference to this place for the spreading of nets being "in the midst of the sea." That fits the island stronghold but hardly fits Richbee's theory that the dust would be scraped from off the surface of an entire mainland "kingdom."

At this point, Richbee began to omit with ellipses verses that had obvious reference to Nebuchadnezzar's instrumentality in the prophecy, so I am going to insert those texts as we go along, so that readers can see what Richbee has deceptively omitted.

Quote:

26:7 7 For thus says Yahweh God: I will bring against Tyre from the north King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon, king of kings, together with horses, chariots, cavalry, and a great and powerful army.

Obviously, part of the prophecy was predicting what Nebuchadnezzar would do to Tyre--which I think I have proven referred to the island city--so he is the he referred to in the verses that Richbee omitted with his frequent ellipses.

Quote:

Richbee:
He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you [Prediction 4]...

As I pointed out in the first part of my reply to Richbee, the "daughter villages in the fields" would have been the mainland satellite villages belonging to Tyre. They would be slain with the sword or, in other words, quickly destroyed, since they lacked the fortifications of the island stronghold, and then Nebuchadnezzar--who had been identified in verse 7, omitted by Richbee's ellipsis--would direct his attention to the city of Tyre itself. Obviously, the heaping of a siege mound against Tyre, the building of a wall against it, and the raising of a defense against it didn't happen during Nebuchadnezzar's siege; hence, the prophecy failed.

The ellipsis in the last verse that Richbee quoted above indicates that he omitted more verses, so I will reinsert them with the third-person singular pronouns emphasized to show that the prophecy was referring to what Nebuchadnezzar would presumably do to Tyre.

Quote:

9 He shall direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls and break down your towers with his axes. 10 His horses shall be so many that their dust shall cover you. At the noise of cavalry, wheels, and chariots your very walls shall shake, when he enters your gates like those entering a breached city. 11 With the hoofs of his horses he shall trample all your streets. He shall put your people to the sword, and your strong pillars shall fall to the ground.

During Nebuchadnezzar's siege, none of this happened within the island city, because Nebuchadnezzar never gained access to it. Now notice that after having omitted all of the verses that made third-person singular references to the instrument that Yahweh would use to destroy Tyre, Richbee began quoting again at the point where the pronoun they was injected into the prophecy. I will explain the significance of this pronoun shift later.

Quote:

Richbee:
They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will breakdown your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water [Prediction 5]...

Richbee was following a popular inerrantist ploy here. He skipped to the third-person plural pronouns in order to leave the impression that "they" rather than "he" would destroy Tyre, but this deception won't work. Reference was made in the verses reinserted above to "horses" and a "calvary" and "chariots" that would thunder through the streets of Tyre, so the antecedents of they would be the horses, calvary, and chariots, which would require a third-person plural pronoun. Nevertheless, the destruction being prophesied was to be administered by Nebuchadnezzar's soldiers.

None of this, by the way, happen either during Nebuchadnezzar's siege, so this part of the prophecy failed.

Now let's look at what was omitted where Richbee's ellipsis was put at the end of his last verse quoted above.

Quote:

13 I will silence the music of your songs; the sound of your lyres shall be heard no more.

The pronoun your was singular in the Hebrew text, which can be verified by checking the KJV, where the obsolete English pronoun thy was used to translate it. This is further evidence that the prophecy was directed against a single city--the island stronghold--and not a mainland "kingdom," which would have consisted of villages [plural] referred to earlier as "daughters in the field." If the prophecy had been referring to all of these, the text would have used the second-person plural pronoun in Hebrew and not the singular, when it said that "thy" songs would be silenced and the sounds of "thy" lyres would be heard no more.

Quote:

Richbee:
I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading of nets, and you shall never be rebuilt [Prediction 6]...

The you in this verse was also singular, as the "thee" and "thou" in the KJV will confirm, so what I said above applies here. The prophecy was directed against a single city--the island stronghold--and not the plurality of mainland villages in some perceived "kingdom." As I pointed out earlier, it is unlikely that the prophecy was predicting that the dust from the entire surface of a mainland "kingdom" would be scraped off to make the land like the "top of a rock."

Richbee's ellipsis here skipped over six verses, which I am going to reinsert from the KJV so that readers can see that the "yous" and "yours" in it were singular in the Hebrew text.

Quote:

KJV:
15 Thus saith the Lord GOD to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of THY fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of THEE? 16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at THEE. 17 And they shall take up a lamentation for THEE, and say to THEE, How art THOU destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, SHE and HER inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it! 18 Now shall the isles tremble in the day of THY fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at THY departure.
19 For thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon THEE, and great waters shall cover THEE; 20 When I shall bring THEE down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set THEE in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that THOU be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living....

I also emphasized she and [i]her[/] to show that throughout this text, which Richbee conveniently omitted, singular pronouns were used to convey that the prophecy was directed against a single entity, i. e., the island stronghold.

Quote:

Richbee:
I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again [Prediction 7].

Notice that the prophecy clearly said that Tyre would 'be no more" and would "never be found again." I showed earlier that this part of the prophecy obviously failed, because Lebanon's fourth largest city now sits on the location of ancient Tyre. To spare readers the inconvenience of looking for my link to pictures of modern Tyre, I am reinserting it here http://tyros.leb.net/tyre/.

Quote:

Richbee:
This Prophesy [sic] must be compared to external historical accounts, and must be scrutinized for validity.

That has been done in detail. The prophecy failed.

Quote:

Richbee:
Shortly after Ezekiel prophesied of God's judgment against Tyre, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon laid siege to Tyre. After a thirteen-year siege, Nebuchadnezzar broke down the city gates and found the city virtually abandoned.

This is not so. Nebuchadnezzar succeeded against the mainland villages [daughter-towns in the country], but he never succeeded in taking the city of Tyre on its island stronghold. A curious thing about this, which I think someone else has already mentioned, is that even Ezekiel later admitted that the prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre forever had failed. The original prophecy in chapter 26 was dated in the "eleventh year" (v:1), and the admission that this prophecy had failed was dated in the "twenty-seventh year."

Quote:

Ezekiel 29:17 17 In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, the word of Yahweh came to me: 18 Mortal, King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor that he had expended against it. 19 Therefore thus says Yahweh God: I will give the land of Egypt to King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon; and he shall carry off its wealth and despoil it and plunder it; and it shall be the wages for his army. 20 I have given him the land of Egypt as his payment for which he labored, because they worked for me, says Yahweh God.

This prophecy was saying that Nebuchadnezzar had received no wages for his army at Tyre, and so Yahweh was going to give him Egypt. The prophecy of Nebuchadnezzar's defeat of Egypt followed in the next chapter. That prophecy failed too, but that is another debate for another time if Richbee is interested.

Quote:

Richbee:
[Some] Most of Tyre's citizens moved to an island about one-half mile off the mainland, and there they fortified a city.

This is sheer ignorance. All Richbee has to do is consult a Bible dictionary or encyclopedia, like Eerdmans (p. 1024) to see that Tyre was known to exist as an island city as early as the 19th century BC. Ezekiel and Nebuchadnezzar lived in the sixth century BC. Some citizens did escape to the island during Nebuchadnezzar's siege, but they escaped to a city that already existed. If Richbee would think sensibly for just a moment, even he should see how nonsensical his claim above really is. Does he seriously think that Nebuchadnezzar defeated a mainland 'kingdom" but allowed some of its citizens to escape to an offshore island and build a city there? The Babylonians could have easily gone to the island themselves and stopped any construction work that the escapees were beginning (according to Richbee's scenario), because there would have been no walls or towers to resist Babylonian efforts to come ashore. What actually happened is that Nebuchadnezzar captured, with no difficulty, the mainland part, which was named Usu, and received a promise of tribute from them. Unable to take the island stronghold, he finally settled for a treaty with the island stronghold and then withdrew the siege and left the area.

Don't biblical inerrantists ever think before they dream up scenarios like this to "explain" biblical discrepancies.

Quote:

Richbee:
Though mainland Tyre was destroyed in 573 B.C. by Nebuchadnezzar's army (Prediction 4), Tyre continued to flourish and remained a powerful city many years thereafter.

Yes, it did, and so the prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy it forever obviously failed.

Quote:

Richbee:
ROTFLMAO!

Well, I suspect that most of the rolling and laughing have stopped.

Farrell Till · 03-15-2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

Just for the record......

Ezekiel 28 (New International Version)

A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre

1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre,
'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel?
Is no secret hidden from you?

4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.

5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.

6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,

7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.

8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.

9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.

10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

11 The word of the LORD came to me:

12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him:

And this does what for Richbee's position? If he is trying to imply that Tyre's having a king would be proof that it was a mainland "kingdom," I will remind him that I showed in my very first reply that many cities in biblical times had kings.

Quote:

Joshua 12:7 The following are the kings of the land whom Joshua and the Israelites defeated on the west side of the Jordan, from Baal-gad in the valley of Lebanon to Mount Halak, that rises toward Seir (and Joshua gave their land to the tribes of Israel as a possession according to their allotments, 8 in the hill country, in the lowland, in the Arabah, in the slopes, in the wilderness, and in the Negeb, the land of the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites): 9 the king of Jericho one the king of Ai, which is next to Bethel one 10 the king of Jerusalem one the king of Hebron one 11 the king of Jarmuth one the king of Lachish one 12 the king of Eglon one the king of Gezer one 13 the king of Debir one the king of Geder one 14 the king of Hormah one the king of Arad one 15 the king of Libnah one the king of Adullam one 16 the king of Makkedah one the king of Bethel one 17 the king of Tappuah one the king of Hepher one 18 the king of Aphek one the king of Lasharon one 19 the king of Madon one the king of Hazor one 20 the king of Shimron-meron one the king of Achshaph one 21 the king of Taanach one the king of Megiddo one 22 the king of Kedesh one the king of Jokneam in Carmel one 23 the king of Dor in Naphath-dor one the king of Goiim in Galilee, one 24 the king of Tirzah one thirty-one kings in all.

I assume everyone noticed that he didn't even touch this.

Quote:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

Quote:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=28&version=31

And this does what to make Richbee's case? I have posted a third reply that showed that the prestige, wealth, glamor, etc. of Tyre do nothing at all to prove that the prophecy that it would be destroyed forever succeeded.

I have taken the time to write some very specific, detailed replies to Richbee's quibbles. Is he going to reply to them or not?

I suspect the latter.

Farrell Till
The Skeptical Review Online
http://www.theskepticalreview.com

Richbee · 03-15-2006, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farrell Till

And this does what for Richbee's position?

You got it, the Kingdom had a King, and much of the commerce and trade is detailed.

Do you deny that Nebbie ended this mainland territory and much of this trade? Tyre became a vassel state or city of Babylon/Persians.

Do you deny that Tyre fell under the rule of the Babylonians and later the Persians?

Quote:

If he is trying to imply that Tyre's having a king would be proof that it was a mainland "kingdom," I will remind him that I showed in my very first reply that many cities in biblical times had kings.

O.K., but we're not discussing just any Biblical City, this is TYRE, and all it's wonder and glory! And, commerce and trade!

Farrell Till · 03-15-2006, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

Thank you for the great pics.

Sorry, what the Arabs call Soûr, or Sur, is not in the same location as ancient Tyre. (I spoke with someone who has been there.)

Do tell! Well, I once had a member on my Errancy site http://iierrancy.com/, who said that he lived at Sur and that everyone knew that it was where Tyre was once located.

Why don't you do us a favor and pinpoint for us the exact location of ancient Tyre with reference to the modern city of Sur?

Quote:

Additionally, when Alexander the Great sold the citizens as slaves, there were no more Tyrians to rebuild Tyre.

See what I mean about the silly quibbles that biblical inerrantists will resort to? Where does Ezekiel's prophecy say that Tyre would never be rebuilt by Tyrians? Who may have rebuilt the city is irrelevant to the prophecy, which simply said that it would never be rebuilt. If the city was later rebuilt by Chinese immigrants, then it would not be true that Tyre had never been rebuilt. Alexander the Great crucified many of the Tyrians and took others with him as slaves, but I know of no records that claim that he eradicated, either through execution or slavery, the entire population.

Does Richbee ever experience embarrassment at anything he says?

Richbee · 03-15-2006, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farrell Till

Quoting from forward..........

.....Notice that the prophecy clearly said that Tyre would 'be no more" and would "never be found again." I showed earlier that this part of the prophecy obviously failed, because Lebanon's fourth largest city now sits on the location of ancient Tyre. To spare readers the inconvenience of looking for my link to pictures of modern Tyre, I am reinserting it here http://tyros.leb.net/tyre/.

Sorry, we will just have to disagree on this.

You have what the Arabs call Sur, or Soûr.

LOL!

This is not at all the Biblical Tyre! Have you seen the pictures of the Roman or Greek ruins built on top of the Old Tyre?

And, as the website points out, the place is best known for FISHING!

Not international trade and commerce! No glory! No great wealth! No TYRIANS!

Alexander the Great sold the Tyrians into slavery! So much for the Biblical Tyre.

Quote:

.....This is sheer ignorance. All Richbee has to do is consult a Bible dictionary or encyclopedia, like Eerdmans (p. 1024) to see that Tyre was known to exist as an island city as early as the 19th century BC. Ezekiel and Nebuchadnezzar lived in the sixth century BC. Some citizens did escape to the island during Nebuchadnezzar's siege, but they escaped to a city that already existed.

O.K., I will accept your correction on this point.

Quote:

Yes, it did, and so the prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy it forever obviously failed.

Sorry, we disagree, as see Nebbie as one part fulfillment and Alexander the Great as another, and "the many nations" like waves of the Sea.

Quote:

Well, I suspect that most of the rolling and laughing have stopped.

You're right, because I am yawning! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Round and round we go.

Farrell Till · 03-15-2006, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

You got it, the Kingdom had a King, and much of the commerce and trade is detailed.

Do you deny that Nebbie ended this mainland territory and much of this trade?

Yes, I do deny it. As I explained in the third of my replies to you, which you don't seem to be reading very carefully, Nebuchadnezzar conquered Usu--the name of the mainland region opposite the island stronghold--with no difficulty, but his siege against the island failed. He extracted tribute from the people of Usu, made a treaty with the island stronghold, and then withdrew. If you say that Nebuchaddnezzar ended just "much" of Tyre's trade, you are admitting that the prophecy failed, because it had prophesied a complete, permanent destruction of the city. If this had happened, then all of Tyre's trade would have ended.

A little reading in something besides books published in Grand Rapids, Michigan, would be very beneficial to Richbee. Even The New Bible Dictionary, a conservative book published by Inter-Varsity Press, disputes practically everything he is saying. On page 1227 (1994 edition), it says that Tyre is (mod. Sur). [Take a guess at what "mod." is an abbreviation of.] It goes on to say that Nebuchadnezzar laid a 13-year siege against it and then tells of other attempts to take it. The fact that others tried after Nebuchadnezzar to take Tyre is just more evidence that the prophecy failed.

Quote:

Do you deny that Tyre fell under the rule of the Babylonians and later the Persians?

Try to read this very carefully, Richbee. The Babylonians failed in their attempt to take Tyre, but it did eventually accept Babylonian suzerainty. The fact that this came after Nebuchadnezzar's failed siege is just more evidence that Ezekiel's prophecy failed. I wouldn't say that Tyre "fell under the rule" of Persia, but its influence was weakened by Persian control in the area. These facts, however, merely confirm that Tyre was not forever destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar as Ezekiel had predicted it would be. Even Alexander's successful defeat of the city, at which time he killed and enslaved "many inhabitants of the city" (Eerdmans, 1987), didn't spell the end of the city. ( Notice that it said "many," not "all." ) It recovered under the Seleucid influence in the area and adopted Greek culture. All of these facts simply confirm the failure of Ezekiel's prophecy.

Quote:

O.K., but we're not discussing just any Biblical City, this is TYRE, and all it's [sic] wonder and glory! And, commerce and trade!

Who has denied that Tyre was a magnificient city for its day, but its grandeue and glory does nothing to prove Richbee's position that the prophecy was wonderfully fulfilled. It wasn't, and I have shown sufficient evidence that it failed.

It is time for Richbee to try to answer his opponents' rebuttals instead of just posting new information.

Jack the Bodiless · 03-15-2006, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

Just a brief reply for the moment.

I disagree, as the modern Tyre is not a "thriving city", and not at all in the same place as the Biblical Tyre. (On this note, I met someone from Lebanon who was actually been to this back water you call a "thriving city".)...

...Sorry, what the Arabs call Soûr, or Sur, is not in the same location as ancient Tyre. (I spoke with someone who has been there.)

...Then you have been lied to. Was this liar a Christian apologist, perchance?

Modern Tyre is in exactly the same place as Biblical Tyre. That's why the old ruins are mostly still under the modern town, except for a cleared area that's a preserved archaeological site. The northern port of the old island is still Tyre's port nowadays. This is what the aerial photographs show, and what the Lebanese Tourist Board says, and what the Tyrians say.

What happened here is simple. Ezekiel prophesied that Nebuhadrezzar would conquer and destroy Tyre, but he goofed. This didn't happen. The rest is a desperate and doomed attempt by apologists to salvage a failed prophecy, by misinterpreting Ezekiel's reference to "many nations" (actually a reference to Nebby's multinational army: there's a big clue in Ezekiel 26:7, where Nebby is described as "king of kings", a ruler over many nations).

By cutting the prophecy in two, the apologists have created TWO failed prophecies where there was previously one: because BOTH parts failed. Note that Nebby's army is supposed to breach "the walls of Tyre" (which he never did: the huge 150-feet-high walls of the island citadel were THE walls of Tyre), and was then supposed to rampage through ALL of Tyre's streets (Ezekiel 26:11), which he couldn't do, as he couldn't get inside the citadel.

Of course, Part 2 failed because Tyre still exists. According to the Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus, author of a biography of Alexander, some 15,000 people escaped by sea and returned later. They repaired the damage to Tyre (not that it really matters if THEY did it anyhow). It's interesting how adamant the apologists are in creating a role for Alexander, even though he accomplished nothing permanent at Tyre: no complete destruction, no permanent depopulation, not even the ending of Tyre's prosperity or its status as an independent kingdom (because the latter was already defunct before Alexander's time). I suppose it's a desire to have Ezekiel linked with a clearly-future event (not something actually unfolding while the book was being written) and linked with a successful conqueror of Tyre (and never mind the details).

Ezekiel knew he'd failed. He prophesied riches for Nebby in 26:12, and had to admit that Nebby went home penniless in 29:18-19. So he promised Nebby a great victory over Egypt in chapter 29, as compensation (and quite possibly to save his own neck). But that didn't work out either! IIRC, history doesn't record how Ezekiel died...

yummyfur · 03-15-2006, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farrell Till

Nebuchadnezzar conquered Usu--the name of the mainland region opposite the island stronghold--with no difficulty, but his siege against the island failed. He extracted tribute from the people of Usu, made a treaty with the island stronghold, and then withdrew. If you say that Nebuchaddnezzar ended just "much" of Tyre's trade, you are admitting that the prophecy failed, because it had prophesied a complete, permanent destruction of the city. If this had happened, then all of Tyre's trade would have ended.

Hello Farrell
What are the primary sources for Nebuchadnezzar taking the mainland portion of Tyre? I have looked, and have found many ancient historians that recount a 13 year siege of Tyre, but I have yet to find one that says he took the mainland. Thanks for your help.

Farrell Till · 03-15-2006, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

Sorry, we will just have to disagree on this.

Oh, really? I could disagree that Paris is the capital of France, but that wouldn't make me right, would it? My point is that all credible evidence is against your position, but you refuse to change it because you are shackled to a belief that the Bible is inerrant, a belief that is so indefensible that I don't understand how anyone could continue to cling to it. I can certainly understand how someone could initially believe it, because I was once an inerrantist preacher myself, but when I saw evidence that clearly disputed what I had been indoctrinated to believe, I rejected it. What is your excuse for still clinging to it?

Quote:

You have what the Arabs call Sur, or Soûr.

LOL!

You can't laugh away a fact. As I noted in another post, even The Bible Dictionary published by Inter-Varsity Press, states that Sur is what was once ancient Tyre. I am going to quote the first paragraph of Eerdmans section about Tyre (p. 1025, 1987).

Quote:

A major Phoenician city, in ancient times located on an island off the Mediterranean coast ca. 40 km. (25 mi.) south of Sidon and 45 km. (28 mi.) north of Akko; modern Sur, now situated on a peninsula.

It says that ancient Tyre is now "modern Sur." The "Tyre City Web Page," which I have already referenced http://tyros.leb.net/tyre/, begins like this.

Quote:

Tyre (Sour):

About 83 km south of Beirut, Tyre is the fourth largest city of Lebanon. It was an island in ages past, celebrated for its beauty. Tyre emerges today from the debris of centuries. Excavations on the site have uncovered remains of the Crusader, Arab, Byzantine and Graeco-Roman cities.

Notice that a website of the modern city in question clearly indicates that Sour is Tyre, and Tyre is Sour. Why would it do this if they were not the same? Under pictures of ruins from ancient Tyre, an article entitled "Ancient Tyre (Sour)" begins like this:

Quote:

Important Phoenician settlement on the coast of Lebanon south of Beirut. Continuous settlement has restricted excavation to the Byzantine and Roman levels and information about the Phoenician town comes only from documentary sources. It was situated on an offshore island and had a double harbour linked by a canal which allowed sheltered anchorage and a safe outlet whatever the wind direction. It appears in ancient documents as a powerful and important trading centre famous especially for the purple dye made from murex shells which was known as Tyrian Purple after this site.

Hmm, this article spoke of a "continuous settlement," but how could there have been a continuous settlement if Ezekiel's prophecy was fulfilled, and why was this article entitled as it was if Sour and Tyre are not recognized in that area as one and the same?

I suppose that you are going to tell us that you know more about this than the various experts who clearly recognize that modern Sur (Sour) is located where ancient Tyre once stood. With the exception that the peninsula that formed around Alexander's causeway has enabled the city to expand and spill over other areas, one fact is undeniable to anyone who doesn't have an inerrancy axe to grind: the site on which ancient Tyre was located now has a city built on it.

Let's see just how sure you are of your position. I will bet you $1,000 that Sur is situated on land that was once occupied by ancient Tyre and that this fact can be documented. Are you sure enough of your position to accept the wager?

Quote:

This is not at all the Biblical Tyre! Have you seen the pictures of the Roman or Greek ruins built on top of the Old Tyre?

Yes, I have. These ruins have been excavated at the site of modern Tyre, as noted in the Encyclopedia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9074016/. The subtitle of this article is "modern Arabic Sur, French Tyr, or Sour, Latin Tyrus, Hebrew Zor, or Tsor," so this article clearly recognizes that Tyre and Sur or Sour are one and the same.

Quote:

Excavations have uncovered remains of the Greco-Roman, Crusader, Arab, and Byzantine civilizations, but most of the remains of the Phoenician period lie beneath the present town. Areas of archaeological note include the ruins of a Crusader church, a street with a 2nd-century mosaic pavement and a double colonnade of white green-veined marble, Roman baths, the ruins of a Roman-Byzantine necropolis, and the largest Roman hippodrome ever discovered. Built in the 2nd century, the hippodrome hosted chariot races with a capacity of 20,000 spectators.

In other words, Tyre was continually occupied by various cultures. How could the remains of the Phoenician period, which was contemporary with biblical times, "lie beneath the present town" if the present town is not on the site where ancient Trye was located? All this merely confirms the failure of Ezekiel's prophecy that it would be destroyed and never rebuilt, because if the prophecy had been fulfilled, no structures--and certainly not a city--would be located here. It would be a "bare rock," as Ezekiel had prophesied that it would become forever.

Quote:

And, as the website points out, the place is best known for FISHING!

Not international trade and commerce! No glory! No great wealth!

As I explained in another post, which you have not tried to answer, the prophecy said nothing about Tyre's losing its glory and never regaining it. The prophecy was that the city would be destroyed and never built again. The prophecy obviously failed.

Quote:

No TYRIANS!

Which is supposed to mean what? If Sur is located where ancient Tyre was situated--and the evidence clearly indicates that it was--then the people living there are "Tyrians." This, however, is immaterial, because a city is now located there, and the prophecy was that the city would never be rebuilt.

Quote:

Alexander the Great sold the Tyrians into slavery! So much for the Biblical Tyre.

Actually, Alexander crucified many of the Tyrians and took others into slavery, but he didn't kill or enslave all of them. Eerdmans, which I have quoted several times now, says on page 1025 (1987 edition) of Alexander's conquest of Tyre, "Many inhabitants of the city were killed or enslaved." Many would not have been "all," so there were some left to restore the city, as the same source went on to say: "Tyre 's economy recovered somewhat under the Selucids." The Bible Dictionary, which I have also quoted before, said this about the aftermath of Alexander's conquest:

Quote:

In 332 BC Alexander the Great laid siege to the island port for 7 months and captured it only by building a mole to the island fortress. Despite heavy losses, the port soon recovered under Seleucid patronage.

Notice the part emphasized in bold print. Despite heavy losses, the port soon recovered. Sorry, Richbee, but you are wrong.

Quote:

Richbee:
[Some] Most of Tyre's citizens moved to an island about one-half mile off the mainland, and there they fortified a city.

Till:
This is sheer ignorance. All Richbee has to do is consult a Bible dictionary or encyclopedia, like Eerdmans (p. 1024) was known to exist as an island city as early as the 19th century BC. Ezekiel and Nebuchadnezzar lived in the sixth century BC. Some citizens did escape to the island during Nebuchadnezzar's siege, but they escaped to a city that already existed. If Richbee would think sensibly for just a moment, even he should see how nonsensical his claim above really is. Does he seriously think that Nebuchadnezzar defeated a mainland 'kingdom" but allowed some of its citizens to escape to an offshore island and build a city there? The Babylonians could have easily gone to the island themselves and stopped any construction work that the escapees were beginning (according to Richbee's scenario), because there would have been no walls or towers to resist Babylonian efforts to come ashore.

Richbee:
O.K., I will accept your correction on this point.

You said that the island city had its beginning when mainlanders escaped to the island during Nebuchadnezzar's siege, probably a belief that you had uncritically accepted from something you had read in an apologetic source, but if you didn't know that the island city had existed for centuries before this, you don't have any business trying to debate this issue.

Quote:

Richbee:
Though mainland Tyre was destroyed in 573 B.C. by Nebuchadnezzar's army (Prediction 4), Tyre continued to flourish and remained a powerful city many years thereafter.

Till:
Yes, it did, and so the prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy it forever obviously failed.

Richbee:
Sorry, we disagree, as see Nebbie as one part fulfillment and Alexander the Great as another, and "the many nations" like waves of the Sea.

This is no way to conduct a debate, Richbee. You made an assertion, and I rebutted it. You don't prove anything by just saying, "Sorry, we disagree." You have an obligation to try to reply to my rebuttal, but you don't know how, do you?

If you want to take the position that the prophecy was that "many nations" would destroy Tyre, I will be glad to debate that specific issue with you. Since Nebuchadnezzar had absored the Assyrians and its multi-national population by this time and had conscripted soldiers from the defeated armies into his, then when he came against Tyre, it was "many nations" laying the siege. This is a very defensible position, which I can easily copy from other articles I have written, if you would care to "disagree" again.

Quote:

Richbee:
ROTFLMAO!

Till:
Well, I predict that Richbee will stop rolling on the floor when he encounters my rebuttals above.

Richbee:
You're right, because I am yawning! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Round and round we go.

I said earlier that you can't laugh your way out of the jam you are in, so I will add here that you can't joke your way out of it. If you had any viable rebuttals of my counterarguments, you would have presented them.

I have done a lot of debating on biblical issues in my time, Richbee, and believe me when I say that you are way out of your league.

I don't suppose you are going to accept my wager, are you?

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