Occhamist

Per the Jesus of "Mark" 10:17-30 the Instruction is:

1) "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother."

2) "One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor,"

3) "follow me"

Is this instruction clear?


Jesus was asked a direct question and seems to be rambling, and evading answering it clearly. It's as if he doesn't have a clue, or is stalling for time until he can make something up. It begs for parody:
Jesus: Why do you call me good? Only God's good. I'm just a clueless semi-historical person stuck in the ancient world like you.
Disciples: Master, How do we get into Heaven?
Jesus: "Uh..yeah..uh..you know the rules..do not steal, do not bear false witness..etc. etc. Ya know, all that good stuff."
Disciples: Yes, we followed the commandments, so are we good to go?
Jesus ..Well, uh, not exactly.. As for how to get in, uh, [long pause]

I'll tell you how you can't get in...by being rich and having a big family! So get rid of all your stuff and turn your backs on your family! Give your stuff to the poor for good measure. Follow me and you'll get rewarded by being rich in Heaven..."
Disciples: But we ARE following you! Some of here aren't even concerned with riches. We just asked you how to get into Heaven, whatever is there. So are we good to go?!!


How interesting it is, that he doesn't say something like the following:

"Verily, gentleman, I say unto you, I will be sacrificing myself soon, and you must ingest pieces of wafer each Sunday. There are certain Sacraments..Look, I'll explain later."

JoeWallack

What a nightmare...

JW:
To get you up to speed "Text level" is a relatively modern literary technical term which means at the character level. What would a character know based on the information in the text provided to the character. "Sub-text level" is a relatively modern literary technical term which means at the reader level. What would a reader know based on the information in the text provided to the reader.

Although the difference between the Text and Sub-Text level of "Mark" is key to the understanding of "Mark" it is a relatively modern discovery.

I agree that in "Mark" Jesus' instruction on how to obtain Eternal Life is more shown than dictated but at this point I have not seen anyone demonstrate that "Mark's" Jesus gives clear instruction on how to obtain Eternal Life in any Way. The purpose of this Thread at this point is to determine if Jesus does give clear instruction on how to obtain Eternal Life at the Text level.

It's clear that Jesus never gave clear instruction to the one. The lesson was Negatively, defined. Why the one would not achieve Eternal Life. This lesson does tie back to the Parable of the Sower so maybe this Parable can be used on a cumulative basis to give instruction. We shall see.

The next step is to look at clarity here for the expanded audience, the Disciples. One would expect more clarity at an expanded level. The related significance is lack of clarity here is evidence for authorial intent of Entertainment as opposed to Theology.

Also related is the issue of whether "Mark" has any significant source of witnesses. The Impossible claims, likely non-witness sources and External evidence indicates it is unlikely. If "Mark" has no clear instruction regarding obtaining Eternal Life at the Sub-text level, let alone the Text level, than the Internal evidence also indicates no witnesses as a witness would not provide a story about Jesus' resurrection indicating that they were not a witness to Jesus' resurrection.



Joseph

Elijah

Jesus didn’t come to teach new age medicine. He was trying to free the people from their rulers. Serve him and no other and the world would be free. The rulers are seen as the main source of the peoples’ death, along with the dinner table.
As Paul said the last enemy to be put away is death. We have to get rid of the rulers first. No need in eternal life if it’s going to be a life as a slave to the man.

And if he gave the physical instructions then people would be working on that instead of working on freeing themselves. The instructions he did give them though (IMO) are in fasting and prayer (elevate breathing) which me mentions fairly often… not sure how much in mark off hand.

I’m not seeing much evidence for your claim that this helps support a myth theory. I think an incomplete theology would tend to come from a borrowed point of view more often than a created one since if your writing it yourself then you should be able to fill in the gaps. If you’re just writing down what he said and didn’t think to ask something specific before he died then there is going to be obvious gaps and strange fill-ins. I know you’re going with entertainment angle so I guess that could count for something but not sure what. I also think if you’re writing it you should be able to fill in the resurrection… that’s your big moment in the story right?

rizdek

:rolling:

JoeWallack

JW:
The Pharisees of that time seem to have been defined primarily by a preference for Ethical Law over Ritual Law. They also generally believed in an afterlife. Their basic beliefs would have been similar to "Mark's" Jesus so "Mark's" depiction of the Pharisees as the main enemies of Jesus and active in Galilee appears to be anachronistic as Pharisaic Judaism was likely the main competition of Christians in the author's lifetime, post 70 CE.

The Pharisees believed that Eternal Life for Jews was achieved by following the Law. "Mark's" Jesus is giving his Interpretation on how to follow the Law. At the Sub-text level "Mark" explains that it is God that gives Jesus the Authority to do so (the same as any other Prophet).

The Pharisees believed that non-Jews could achieve Eternal Life by following the Ethical Law and "Mark's" Jesus learns this during his Mission. In "Mark" everything is subservient to Faith, including Jesus.

Although "Mark" used Paul as a major source, the big difference between the two is that per Paul following the Law did not lead to Eternal Life.

JW:
All unclear. There is no reliable oral tradition or chain of written witness to explain. Is it meant to be Literal or Figurative or somewhere in between. Or maybe, as Bill Murray said in the classic Holy Ghostbusters, "Actually it's more of a guideline than a rule." What this Thread is looking at is is it meant to be Theology or Entertainment or somewhere in between. Lack of clarity in general favors Entertainment.

Regarding the development of eschatological Christianity we seem to have the following Jewrassic periods:

1) 10,000,000,000 - 9,999,997,000 BCE The Polycrakkic Period

2) 9,999,997,000 BCE - -0- The Monolithic Period

3) -0- - 100 CE The Pre-historic period

4) 100 CE - 150 CE The Pauleoirony Period

5) 150 CE - 300 CE The Maurioironio Period

6) 300 CE - 500 CE The Kurio Period

7) 500 CE - 1500 CE The Killio Period

8) 1500 CE - The Schizio in the Hizzio Period

JW:
You do ask a lot of questions for someone from New Jersey but they are good questions. Don't underestimate yourself. If you accept that the Impossible is Impossible than you are already ahead of most professional Christian Bible scholars.



Joseph

bacht

Thanks. I wasn't sure I understood where you were going with this thread. I am skeptical about the impossible, specifically anything supernatural.

I'm quite interested in Mark's method and purpose, and I agree that it is not obvious. It was suggested recently that we shouldn't read him literally, but maybe as some kind of commentary on pre-revolt messianists. Maybe he is trying to show that the Christian teachings never really worked? Or was he trying to warn remaining apocalypticists in the years before Bar Kochba?

JoeWallack

JW:
Continuing with our current inquiry as to whether Jesus' instructions for Eternal Life in Chapter 10 are clear at the Text level, these were Jesus' related instructions to the one:

1) "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother."

2) "One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor,"

3) "follow me"

It's generally agreed here that these instructions in Toto are unclear to the one. The primary purpose of the exchange seems to be to illustrate why the one will not achieve Eternal Life and the answer is an attachment to wealth. The one also receives instruction to "follow" Jesus but does not receive any explanation of what that means.

The one's story looks like it is connected to the very critical (so to speak) Parable of the Sower:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_4

I have Faith that the Parable of the Sower is the closest you can get to instruction in "Mark" for Eternal Life. "Mark" is a CrossWord puzzle and you have to fit the key peaces of the puzzle back to this Parable to expand the instruction via illustration. Start with the Borders of Heaven. In "Mark's" wonderful use of Irony here the key requirement to achieve Eternal Life is to help others achieve Eternal Life.

At the Text level though this is all unclear to the multitudes as not only does Jesus only provide detail explanations to the Disciples but Jesus intentionally does not try/want the multitudes to understand. If you are a Christian that thinks "Mark" is primarily based on historical witness, than witness this for a moment. "Mark" has provided a Story where his Jesus intentionally did not give clear instruction to the multitudes on how to achieve Eternal Life, and did give clear instruction to the Disciples who were responsible for a story showing that they never understood that Jesus gave clear instruction.

In the wonderful world of Markan Replacement the Multitudes of the Text, who do not understand, are Replaced by the Multitudes of the Sub-text, who do.

The clarity of Jesus' instruction has yet to be demonstrated though at any level in this Thread, so on with the detail analysis:

After the one leaves, not completely knowing what is required for Eternal Life, Jesus expands the related audience:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_10

JW:
Has Jesus now made the requirements for Eternal Life clear to the Disciples at the Text level?



Joseph

HEAVEN, n.
A place where the wicked cease from troubling you with talk of their personal affairs, and the good listen with attention while you expound your own.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

bacht

Jesus seems to be saying "leave your whole life behind and follow me", and the follower will be rewarded. But he still hasn't really explained what the Gospel is, has he?

JoeWallack

JW:
Continuing with our current inquiry as to whether Jesus' instructions for Eternal Life in Chapter 10 are clear at the Text level, these were Jesus' related instructions to the one:

1) "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother."

2) "One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor,"

3) "follow me"

It's generally agreed here that these instructions in Toto are unclear to the one. The primary purpose of the exchange seems to be to illustrate why the one will not achieve Eternal Life and the answer is an attachment to wealth. The one also receives instruction to "follow" Jesus but does not receive any explanation of what that means.

The clarity of Jesus' instruction has yet to be demonstrated though at any level in this Thread, so on with the detail analysis:

After the one leaves, not completely knowing what is required for Eternal Life, Jesus expands the related audience:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_10

JW:
Jesus' instruction here, original to the one and supplemental to the Disciples, is so Indirect that it is unclear at every level. Indirect qualities:

1) Initiated to Jesus (as opposed to from)

2) Specific to an individual

3) Emphasis of an individual defect

4) Emphasis of a negative

5) Expanded audience to supplement explanation

Considering the quantity of clarity we have the following levels of audience with clarity increasing at each level:

Text:

1) Disciples - Did they understand?

The text provides no evidence that they did.

2) Disciples - Should they have understood?

Probably not. The Text fails to identify Explicitly what the defect of the Disciples is here and with apologies to Jeffrey, even France can't see it.

Sub-text:

3) Readers - Is it understandable?

In the exchange above Jesus' advises that "one" must forgo wealth to achieve EL (Eternal Life). Peter points out that the Disciples already have forgone wealth to follow Jesus. Jesus makes the Ironic observation (because it's in his Contract) that even though you give up home, family, friends and city to follow Jesus you will receive multiple homes, families, friends and cities following Jesus (through proselytizing). Oh yea, and multiple persecutions too.

The unstated defect of the Disciples, which must be deduced, is their Motivation to follow Jesus. They have forgone wealth to follow Jesus in order to gain wealth in this life. It's an investiture. They want to be close to the Messiah in order to be in positions of power (in this Life). Think Rove. The text, as always, still indicates that the Disciples have no conception of any afterlife for Jesus let alone themselves. By Implication than they must be motivated by the thought of reward in this life. This falls into Jesus' Ironic summary:

Give up wealth (here) and you will have wealth (there). Not really a sacrifice, is it?

The following exchange makes clearer the misunderstanding of the Disciples motivation regarding wealth and their missed context of this world versus the world of EL, by doing the same thing with Power and Glory:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_10

JW:
James is looking for Glory and Power in this life by being close to the Messiah but has the same misunderstanding here that Peter did because they both fail to see Jesus' context of this world verses the world of EL.

As a side note there is some support here for HJ, as having a Later (Last) follower of Jesus criticize the First, Peter, as trying to make money off Jesus, and James, trying to get power out of Jesus, does sound historical and familiar.



Joseph

HEAVEN, n.
A place where the wicked cease from troubling you with talk of their personal affairs, and the good listen with attention while you expound your own.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Continuing with our investigation of the clarity of "Mark's" Jesus' instructions for EL at the Text level, we have seen the most such Explicit instructions in the one's story:

The 2nd requirement, wealth, is what doomed the one to mortality, and 3) was never explained to the one. Jesus expanded the related explanation of 2) to the Disciples who were confused by the explanation and never seemed to understand that they also were not meeting requirement 2) because they, like the one, were still Motivated by wealth in this life. Jesus than stops the related explanation for the Disicples, without explaining 3) at the time, because he is stopping with the identified defect of the Disciples just like he stopped with the identified defect of the one.

The "one's" story seems to be the only story in "Mark" that Explicitly identifies all requirements for EL. Whether these requirements are clear at any level is another issue. Let's travel with Jesus now on the Way through "Mark" to look for an explanation of these 3 (3 sir, 3) requirements:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_8

JW:
At the Text level through 8:33 Jesus' Audience is the Disciples. At 8:34 Jesus explicitly includes "the multitude" in his audience. Jesus' explanation to this combined audience is probably Fictional for the following reasons:

1) At 8:26, the man that Jesus taught to see clearly, is instructed by Jesus not to enter the Village. In the next sentence Jesus enters the Village. An Entertaining introduction to the story.

2) At 8:27, Jesus' Mission to take Jerusalem starts at Caesarea Philippi. The historical Roman conquest to take Jerusalem per Josephus starts at Caesarea Philippi.

3) At 8:34 "called unto him the multitude" is probably a Literary device.

4) At 8:34 "take up his cross" would not mean much/anything at the Text level since the characters have not been introduced to it. The meaning would be at the Sub-text level. The Disciples were at least told that Jesus would be killed. The multitude was not.

"Mark's" general theme is clear that Jesus was intentionally unclear about his Ministry but intentionally clear about his Passion. The specifics in this story confirm Jesus' intention to be clear here "he spake the saying openly". Clearly "Mark" wants someone to understand.

5) Starting at 8:34 the multitude would not know what Jesus was talking about here "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" since it is applicable to Disciples and not Civilians. Since this instruction, obtaining Eternal Life, is presumably the most important in "Mark", "Mark" wants the instruction understood. Since the multitude could not understand it at the Text level, "Mark's" intent must be for it to be understood at the Sub-Text level. "The Multitude" is not historical. It is the Reader.

6) 8:35 has a Jesus saying with extreme Ironic contrast.

7) 8:38 is clearly Fiction since it is Impossible. Presentation of clear fiction, even if believed by the author, shortens the distance to intentional fiction.

8) The instruction here is probably the most important in "Mark" and occurs about mid-way through looking like a contrived Placement.

This story appears to be Jesus' detail verbal explanation of what 3), "follow me" means and we have the necessary tie-in to the Key Parable of the Sower:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_4

Jesus' explanation above of "follow me" consists of the following:

1) "deny himself"

2) "take up his cross"

3) "lose his life for my sake and the gospel`s"

4) "For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words"

The lowest level of understanding would be was the above instruction understood at the Text level by anyone? It's clear that this instruction was unclear at the Text level for the following reasons:

1) The explanations are very Figurative.

2) The explanations are very General.

3) This explanation of "follow me" is Disconnected to the story of the one and the Parable of the Sower.

4) The Templeoral problem is that the explanation deals with a Passion that has not happened at this point in the narrative.

5) Specifically, "Mark" has a major Ironic (surprise) theme that the Followers of Jesus never understood what following Jesus really meant.

6) Generally, Mark" has a major Ironic (surprise) theme that the Followers of Jesus never understood Jesus' important instructions.



Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page