JoeWallack

No Shirts, No Shoes, No Heavenly Service. "Mark's" Instruction On How To Start Living After You Die

JW:
I have Faith that most here would agree that the most important Objective of Christianity from the beginning was achieving Eternal Life.

The purpose of this Thread will be to explore How the original Gospel narrative, "Mark", instructs Christians as to How to achieve Eternal Life.

The significance of this issue from a Polemical standpoint is the potential relationship between the clarity of the instruction and conclusions as to the quantity of "Mark" being Theology versus Literature (Entertainment). The clearer the instruction the better the evidence for Theology and the unclearer the instruction the better the evidence for Literature.

The first phase of this investigation should be restricted to an examination of "Mark" at the Text or character level as this is the most objective level of analysis. The more subjective levels of Sub-text (Reader) and History will be later phases.

The best potential evidence at the Text level is Explicit identification of instruction for Eternal Life and by an Act of Providence we happen to have at least one such excerpt:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_10

Per the Jesus of "Mark" 10:17-30 the Instruction is:

1) "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother."

2) "One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor,"

3) "follow me"

Is this instruction clear?



Joseph

HEAVEN, n.
A place where the wicked cease from troubling you with talk of their personal affairs, and the good listen with attention while you expound your own.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

sschlichter

I beleive it gets clearer if you focus on the full question. Unlike the thief on the cross who asks to be remembered by Christ (not of anything he had done, but by the mercy of God) or the tax collector who is justified by beating his chest before God, this wealthy man comes to Christ to present his credentials.

Mark 10:17 And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Christ, unimpressed uses him as analogy to illustrate that no one can earn their way to heaven, and then answers his question...

Mark 10:26 And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved?

Mark 10:27 Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God.

~Steve

Elijah

By follow him I think he means sacrifice yourself as he did.
I think Jesus probably believed in a limited resurrection of the dead in the coming age where only the good would be brought back and was creating a line of martyrs with a promise that they would be remembered enough to be brought back if they sacrificed themselves as he did.

JoeWallack

JW:
The Objectives of this Thread are:

1) Identify "Mark's" instruction for Eternal Life.

2) Evaluate the Clarity of the instruction.

JW:
This is clearly wrong. "Mark's" Jesus is clear here that you can earn your way to heaven:

These are all Actions and not beliefs. "Mark's" Jesus says it is very difficult, but it is possible. 1) - 3) are all Possible per "Mark's Jesus. Note that 3) "follow me" does not refer to Jesus' Impossible Ministry but rather Jesus' possible Passion. I tell you the truth, you are a long Way from "Mark's" Jesus' Kingdom of God.

"Mark's" allusion here, is to Paul. The key word is inherit. In order to bring the Gentiles into the Kingdom Paul must deal with the Jewish Bible being clear that God's salvation is an inheritance that the Jews will receive from their fore-fathers. Paul dishonestly changes this inheritance as we see by tracing the offending word:

http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=%CE...&number=613130

At Galatians 4:30

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Galatians_4

"Mark" also makes the connection clear with the little children discussion:

"Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you--"

At Galatians 5:21

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Galatians_5

At 1 Corinthians 6:9

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php..._Corinthians_6

"Mark" also makes the connection clear with the do not defraud commandment:

"1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, but ye yourselves do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren."

At 1 Corinthians 15:50

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php...Corinthians_15

The specifics of the question go back to the Parable of the Sower in "Mark":

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_4

All of this is indicating a very indirect instruction from "Mark" on how to achieve Eternal Life. What I Am looking for for starters in this Thread is an evaluation of "Mark's" Jesus' first clearly presented instruction for Eternal Life:

1) "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother."

Is this clear instruction or not?



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

sschlichter

Oh! Now that I understand what you are really after then NO, it is not clear at all.

You can make it even less clear by doing this...

"Thou knowest the commandments, Do not..."

JoeWallack

JW:
Again, the Objectives of this Thread are:

1) Identify "Mark's" instruction for Eternal Life.

2) Evaluate the Clarity of the instruction.

Is the instruction "follow me" clear at the Text level?

"Mark's" Jesus' instruction here starts off with a misdirection:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_10

JW:
Jesus is asked the Key question respectfully and sincerely and Jesus first responds with a gratuitous comment on the greeting. This looks like Entertainment.

The starting relevant response is:

JW:
Jesus refers to the commandments of the Jewish Bible which seems clear. The setting of "Mark" is that Jesus is the Sequelle to the Jewish Bible.

The first problem here is that "Do not defraud" is not one of the commandments so it is now unclear what exactly "commandments" here refers to. All, most, some, non-ritual from the Jewish Bible or someone else's list based to some extent on the Jewish Bible? Another complication is that "Do not defraud" in this context looks like it has Paul (1 Corinthians 6:8) as a source which would not be known at the Text level.

The big problem for clarity though is what comes next:

JW:
This seems to indicate that merely following the commandments of the Jewish Bible is not enough to gain Eternal Life, you have to do more. Now the initial presumption that following the Jewish Bible was enough is undone. This defect was specific to the questioner here. Are there other specific commandments for others?

The practical problem here is that the original Gospel has Jesus hisself give instruction for Eternal Life here:

and very few Christians historically have accepted this instruction at the Text level. Ironically, Christians, while having a basic belief that Christianity goes beyond the commandments, here revert to the Jewish Bible commandment to tithe instead of Jesus' commandment to give all.

In summary, "Mark's" Jesus' instruction here for Eternal Life is unclear for the following reasons:

1) Jesus starts his response with a gratuitous comment.

2) It's unclear what exactly "commandments" is intended to refer.

3) Jesus uses Paul's words in his response.

4) Jesus indicates the commandments are not enough.

5) Jesus' response here is specific to one person.

6) Christians historically have not followed Jesus' instruction here.

The lack of clarity is evidence for Entertainment rather than Theology. In order to Save theology one must argue that the lack of clarity is intentional on the part of the author. It could be intentional if the author wanted to explain why Jesus was rejected in his time. It was all part of the plan just like Pee-Wee Herman saying "I meant to do that." "Mark" was written as a pre-Q-El to Paul, explaining how things got to where they were in Paul's time. No one understood that what was important about Jesus was his Passion until Paul learned of it through Revelation. Paul needed to learn of it through Revelation because there was no historical witness to teach him.

The cost of this though is that one must sacrifice the supposed historical witness of the Disciples.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Roger Pearse

"No Shirts/Shoes,No Heavenly Service" ... and I thought this was about the Credit Crunch...

bacht

First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions
and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation."
They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water,
through which the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 2 Peter

Well, whoever wrote this believed in a global deluge in the past, and a fiery judgment to come. How rational is this?

ChuckE99

Isn't Jesus' prescription for the rich man specific to him (and anyone who values their riches above all earthly possessions)? You want to get into heaven? Fine. You have to give up the one thing you love the most about your earthly existence. Rich man? Give up your riches and follow me. Fisherman? Drop your nets and follow me. Devoted father/son/daugther/etc.? Give up your family and follow me. Give up what you love about life, because what you really need to love is God and God alone.

bacht

Sorry, I have to part company with you on this point. I don't see how an eschatological belief in the end of the world is rational or even healthy. At best it is idealistic or utopian, and maybe emotionally regressive ie. big Daddy will take care of everything.