Leelee

Ah, you're one of those people I've heard of who think only the KJV is the real Bible. If this version is the one true, inerrant, version, could you explain why it teaches that unicorns and satyrs exist?

Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following Scriptures from the KJV of the Bible:

Ezekiel 26

4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

What does the top of a rock look like? Today, does the island settlement or the mainland settlement look like the top of a rock? Are nets spread at the island settlement? Isn't it underwater? Are nets spread where the mainland settlement used to be? If so, I assume that nets were spread at the mainland settlement before and after the invasion of the mainland settlement.

It is interesting to note that after speaking scathing judgments against Tyre, God took centuries to finally defeat all of Tyre. In addition, it is suspicious that Ezekiel called Nebuchadnezzar a "king of kings." Since when does a "king of kings" go home in defeat? Further, if God really wanted to prove that he could predict the future, all that he would have needed to do would have been to predict when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year. The same argument applies to all Bible prophecies that are questionable when that did not have to be the case if God can really predict the future.

The New Testament speaks harshly of Tyre too. I believe that a logical explanation is that the New Testament writers who wrote about Tyre were jealous of Tyre's wealth.

Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following Scriptures from the King James Version of the Bible:

Ezekiel 26

4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

If there are any Greek scholars around, please post your best translations of those versions.

sugarhitman

Critics and bible scholars alike has gotten this prophecy all wrong. The critics keep saying Tyre still exist and was supposed to be destroyed by Babylon, while some on the opposite side says the island is Alexander's causeway. However they are both wrong. God said nothing about Tyre being completely destroyed by Babylon. In fact none of the nations who would come against Tyre was to destroy it completely. God said "And I will make you like the top of a rock: you will be a place to spread nets upon; you shall be built no more."---God


In other words Tyre would be transformed from the Queen of Trade to a place of fishing. Tyre today is not ancient Tyre because it is no longer a Two part city with the mainland a place for fishing which to this day has not been rebuilt. God said nothing about it being completely uninhabited or desolate until: "When I shall make you a desolate city, like cities that are not inhabited; WHEN I shall bring up the deep upon you, and great waters shall cover you; WHEN I shall bring you down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set you in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down into the pit that you be not inhabited....I will make you a terror and you shall be no more: though you be sought for, yet shall you never be found again."---God. So how can Babylon or any other nation perform this feat? They cant, and it was not the intention of God to completely destroy them this way. As clearly shown what is left of Tyre God will destroy by bringing the sea over it.


No no they say Tyre is supposed to be not there. No? In Jeremiah 25 his prophesy of AREMEGEDDON Tyre is listed as being present. "For thus says the Lord God of Israel to me; 'Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand and cause all the nations to whom I send to drink it...To Jerusalem...Egypt...And all the kings of Tyrus...Look i am beginning to bring judgement on the city (Jerusalem) called by my name, and should you be utterly unpunished? You shall not be unpunished, for I will call for a sword (war) upon all the inhabitants of the earth....Thus says the Lord of hosts, behold judgement shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.....And the slain of the Lord shall be AT THAT DAY from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth....(THE WHOLE WORLD AT AREMEGEDDON). In Jeremiah 25 Tyre is clearly shown to serve Babylon not be destroyed by it: "Thus said the Lord to me, 'Make yourself bonds and yokes (symbols of servitude) and put them on your neck. And send them to the king of Edom, and the king of Moab, and to the king of the Ammonites, and to THE KING OF TYRUS....now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar...and all nations shall serve him , and his son, and his son's son." So Babylon was not to destroy Tyre but it did put Tyre to tribute....just as Jeremiah predicted.


These scriptures prooves that Tyre was not to be completely destroyed by Babylon or any other nation but to be reduced from its former glory and made into a "place for the spreading of nets." God himself will destroy it by burying it in the deep which will most likely be the result of some great tsnami. When studying end time scenerio one thing is clear there will be world wide earth quakes. "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; THE SEA AND THE WAVES ROARING. And there will be great earthquakes in various places"---Jesus. "and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth so mighty an earthquake, and so great."---Rev. 16. " I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; and the heavens, they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, and all the hills moved back and forth....and all the cities were broken down at the presence of the Lord, by his fierce anger."---Jeremiah 4: 23-26.

Tyre a coastal island city will no doubt be buried under the sea when these quakes take place in the end times.


Signs that these things are approaching is:

Dispute over the Holy Land
World hostility towards Israel
World Peace and Safety movement
Globalization (World Government)
Hostility to christianity
Apostate Christianity
Famines
Plagues
Wars
The decline of western Democracy


What God has spoken....will surely come to pass.

squiz

You can see a good aerial view of Tyre here:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...&t=h&z=15&om=1

I suppose it all depends on how you interpret "you shall be built no more".

Amaleq13

No, it depends on whether you accept what that phrase clearly means or pretend it means something entirely different.

braces_for_impact

Oh yeah, jeeze, that's a recent development to be sure.

Ditto.

I see this claim often, but I never see a linking series of progressions showing globalization ------> world government. By most accounts, there are 194 countries in the World.



Apostate Christianity? Heh. Christians started off by killing each other over what should constitute "true Christianity" before Jesus' body was cold. If I were you I would look at your present situation (over 144,000 denominations) as an improvement. Call it peaceful coexistence if you like.

Yeah, these are the true earmarks of a prophecy coming true. Before Christian prophecy, there was no famine, plagues or wars. Oh woe is me! The end is nigh!

Whatever that's supposed to mean? I think it's just human nature. Every generation will look around and insist that every thing is going to hell in a hand basket, and blame the generation before it.

Solitary Man

Well, geez, if those are the signs, then I'd say the endtimes should have came 2000 years ago.

1. Dispute over the Holy Land

Rome fought not one but two wars over Israel.

2. World hostility towards Israel

Yep, just like in the Roman Empire.

3. World Peace and Safety movement

Pax Romana.

4. Globalization (World Government)

Imperium Romanum.

5. Hostility to christianity

I don't think I even have to mention the numerous Christians persecuted by the Romans.

6. Apostate Christianity

Marcionites, Arians, Valentinians, various other Gnostic groups.

7. Famines

See: Peter Garnsey "Famine and food supply in the Greco-Roman world: responses to risk and crisis".

8. Plagues

Ditto above.

9. Wars

Doesn't this one negate #3. If there is world peace, how can there be wars? But yes, there were plenty of wars under the Roman empire, including ones over Israel.

10.The decline of western Democracy

As we all know, Augustus removed the Republican-style democracy to imperialism.

Looks like you're a little late on your "end times" prediction.

FAIL.

Johnny Skeptic

But what evidence do you have that the Tyre prophecy was recorded before the events?

Will you please tell us what the top of a rock looks like? There are all kinds of rocks that come in many different shapes and sizes.

As far as the spreading of nets is concerned, are you not aware that nets were spread to dry at the mainland settlement and the island settlement long before Nebuchadnezzar invaded Tyre, and after he invaded Tyre?

It is suspicious that in Ezekiel 26, Ezekiel calls Nebuchadnezzar a "king of kings" since Nebuchadnezzar failed to conquer Tyre. How can a king of kings fail to conquer one small kingdom? This suggests to me that the "many nations" part of Ezekiel 26 was added after it became apparent that Nebuchadnezzar would fail to conquer Tyre.

It is also suspicious that after speaking scathing judgments against Tyre, it took hundreds of years for the island settlement to be conquered. If God was actually mad at Tyre, there is no way that he would have taken hundreds of years to get even. If people who lived in the island settlement knew about the Tyre prophecy, many of them died of natural causes believing that since they had not been defeated, the God of the Bible does not exist, or is weak.

Why would God have opposed the Tyrians any more than he would have opposed anyone else? There were evil people all over the world. A probable answer is that some Bible writers were jealous of the riches of Tyre.

Since all kingdoms in history have eventually fallen, it is easy to predict that any kingdom will eventually fall.

Oceanograpers will tell us that historically, it has not been unusual at all for small islands and islets to eventually become partially or fully covered with water.

Why would God want to predict the future?

If God really wanted to convince people that he is able to predict the future, why didn't he predict when and where some natural disasters would occur? By "when," I mean month, day, and year.

If Old Testament Jews appointed themselves as God's chosen people, that explains why Old Testament Bible prophecies deal mainly with Jews, and why God for the most part turned his back on the rest of the people in the world.

diana

Of course you can, sugarhitman! Go fishing over it with nets after it has sunk into the sea!

The amusing bit to me here is that if Tyre had, in fact, sunk beneath the sea, apologists would use this explanation shamelessly to claim that both prophesies had been fulfilled.

It would be a fun exercise to list "unfulfilled prophesies" from the bible and list the various factors that could make each "come true."

d