mountainman

But I am agreeing with Steven's sarcasm! In a valid translationary sense Eusebius published his work using the empire's most advanced technology at a time when the management and absolute control of the advanced technology of the codex (the preservation of written knowledge) was bundled with the role of pontifex maximus.

I recognise elevation to the purple.

Chili

Because John is the Catholic Gospel and that is why a 'church father' would hear his voice, and not just calling but leading him home.

neilgodfrey

Of course, to repeat what should be the obvious, what Irenaeus says about Papias is what Irenaeus is wanting his readers to think about his own -- i.e. Irenaeus's [not Papias's] -- sources.

yalla

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vii.xxxiv.html


This is the text of Irenaeus [c 175-185] just before the mention of Papias.


"as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, [ Or, following Arm. vers., “But if any one shall lay hold of an holy cluster.”] another shall cry out, “I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.” ......"


http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseude...a/2Baruch.html

This is the text of 2 Baruch [late 1st century - early 2nd century]

"The earth also shall yield its fruit ten-thousandfold and on each vine there shall be a thousand branches, and each branch shall produce a thousand clusters, and each cluster produce a thousand grapes, and each grape produce a cor of wine.. And those who have hungered shall rejoice: moreover, also, they shall behold marvels every day ..."

So in this case Irenaeus cites "the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord" who says the Lord used to teach this material and later Irenaeus states "And these things are borne witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book" and yet ... this material is very similar to the text of 2 Baruch which was written after the purported death of JC and before Irenaeus wrote his material.

So who got what from whom?

andrewcriddle

If one is borrowing from the other then Irenaeus and/or Papias is borrowing from Baruch.

However, Baruch seems to be a composite work based on earlier material. It may well be that Baruch and Papias are drawing independently on an earlier Jewish Apocalypse.

In any case this seems to illustrate that by the time of Papias oral tradition genuinely going back to Jesus was being confused with other sorts of material.

Andrew Criddle