Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gstafleu · 12-02-2007, 11:30 AM

Having said that, the NYT article says: "That said, I think the big problem is that National Geographic wanted an exclusive. So it required its scholars to sign nondisclosure statements, to not discuss the text with other experts before publication." My italics. So what is the case here? can the NG scholars defend their translation or not?

Gerard Stafleu

wordy · 12-02-2007, 11:31 AM

I know nothing about the "Judas" text.

But what did the original writers of the NT text try to accomplish then?

They have the OT text saying that Jesus will be betrayed. So somebody has to do it. Whom that is is maybe not as important as it has to be done to fulfill the text.

If none had betrayed him Jesus either would have to give himself up which maybe would be seen as betraying his ideals or something. Or he would have appoint someone to do it.

Which he actually does. He says that one of them who sit at the table will do it.

If all of them had refused then he had to order one of them to do it. Or else no salvation for mankind.

What gnostics write around 200 is most likely a commentary and part of a ongoing competition of getting supporters.

What is the official "Christian" answer based on the Bible text. If Judas had not betrayed him how would Jesus be able to save mankind.

Jesus is portrayed as very helpless if he couldn't persuade Judas to not betray him. So from my very naive perspective it was planned to be him and he filled his role. The story was set up that way to fulfill the OT text on what will happen.

Charles Gadda · 12-03-2007, 12:26 PM

The Times piece is excellent, but notice what she says about the Dead Sea Scrolls:

"The situation reminds me of the deadlock that held scholarship back on the Dead Sea Scrolls decades ago. When manuscripts are hoarded by a few, it results in errors and monopoly interpretations that are very hard to overturn even after they are proved wrong."

As I have shown in a number of articles, the somewhat deranged and offensive results of the Scrolls monopoly are still quite visible today, in an outrageously biased and misleading exhibit taking place in a "natural history" museum in San Diego. See my articles here for details:

http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/did...ibit-san-diego

So I think an important question is whether so-called "liberal" Christian biblical scholars who, like April DeConick, seek to do their research in accordance with basic scientific principles rather than any religious agenda, will part company with their Evangelical-minded colleagues and frankly condemn what is going on with the Dead Sea Scrolls in one museum exhibit after another.

Ray Moscow · 12-03-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoxRat

I take it, then, that Pagels and King book (or via: amazon.co.uk) is based on the "mistranslation"?

Yeah, I saw that article on Saturday and wondered the same thing.

andrewcriddle · 12-04-2007, 10:18 AM

April Deconick posts on her new translation of the Gospel of Judas and other matters at http://forbiddengospels.blogspot.com/

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 12-07-2007, 02:47 PM

The translators reply

Quote:

April D. DeConick speaks too confidently when she talks about our mistakes in translation. She knows better. The issues of translation she highlights are almost all discussed in the notes in the popular edition and critical edition of the Gospel of Judas, and the observation that Judas is the “thirteenth daimon” in the text is open to discussion and debate.

Professor DeConick’s additional insinuations of ulterior motives by her fellow scholars in the establishment of the Coptic text and the development of an appropriate translation are extremely disappointing and disturbing. She knows how we struggled carefully and honestly with this difficult text preserved in fragments.

Marvin Meyer

The writer, one of the original editors and translators of the Gospel of Judas, is a professor of religious studies at Chapman University

* * *

. . .

When we published, we encouraged respectful, global discourse. We invite Professor DeConick and other scholars to join us at the National Geographic Society to continue the public discussion.

Terry Garcia

Executive Vice President

Mission Programs

National Geographic Society

andrewcriddle · 12-10-2007, 11:18 AM

Rereading the NG translation of the Gospel of Judas in the light of DeConick's arguments I was convinced in the light of parallels from other gnostic texts that Judas is indeed the earthly manifestation of the 13th aeon, and not an unusually enlightened human disciple.

Whether this necessarily makes Judas in the Gospel of Judas as straightforwardly malevolent as April DeConick claims may be another matter.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 12-10-2007, 01:22 PM

National Geographic Society Press Release

Quote:

On the Waterfront with Judas -- Statement from Marvin Meyer, one of the Translators of the Gospel of Judas

Well, who's going sensationalistic on the Gospel of Judas now? The overly strong comments of my friend and colleague Professor April DeConick on the Gospel of Judas require a response. I have Professor DeConick's book, The Thirteenth Apostle, on my desk. Her translation and interpretation present a revisionist perspective on the text, and while I find her perspective to be very interesting, there are issues and problems in what she is doing.

. . .

Even if Judas does end up with the demiurge, what might that mean? A few lines before the discussion of the Gospel of Judas in the heresiologist Irenaeus of Lyon, it is said that some such folks understand that Christ himself sits down at the right hand of Yaldabaoth in order to help in the salvation of the souls of people!

Further, it is not clear that any of the answers based on later Sethian sources provide appropriate insights into the Gospel of Judas. The use of later--in some cases much later--texts to interpret such an early text as the Gospel of Judas raises fundamental methodological questions.
Professor DeConick's additional insinuations of ulterior motives on the part of her fellow scholars in the establishment of the Coptic text and the development of an appropriate translation are extremely disappointing and disturbing. She must know how we struggled carefully and honestly with this difficult text preserved in fragments, since she herself is struggling with it now.

Toto · 05-31-2008, 01:39 PM

The Betrayal of Judas from the Chronicle of Higher Education. Nothing new, but some interesting quotes and observations on the politics of scholarship.

judge · 05-31-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

She knows how we struggled carefully and honestly....

:crying:

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12-02-2007, 11:30 AM	#21
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Having said that, the NYT article says: "That said, I think the big problem is that National Geographic wanted an exclusive. So it required its scholars to sign nondisclosure statements, to not discuss the text with other experts before publication." My italics. So what is the case here? can the NG scholars defend their translation or not? Gerard Stafleu

12-02-2007, 11:31 AM	#22
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	I know nothing about the "Judas" text. But what did the original writers of the NT text try to accomplish then? They have the OT text saying that Jesus will be betrayed. So somebody has to do it. Whom that is is maybe not as important as it has to be done to fulfill the text. If none had betrayed him Jesus either would have to give himself up which maybe would be seen as betraying his ideals or something. Or he would have appoint someone to do it. Which he actually does. He says that one of them who sit at the table will do it. If all of them had refused then he had to order one of them to do it. Or else no salvation for mankind. What gnostics write around 200 is most likely a commentary and part of a ongoing competition of getting supporters. What is the official "Christian" answer based on the Bible text. If Judas had not betrayed him how would Jesus be able to save mankind. Jesus is portrayed as very helpless if he couldn't persuade Judas to not betray him. So from my very naive perspective it was planned to be him and he filled his role. The story was set up that way to fulfill the OT text on what will happen.

12-03-2007, 12:26 PM	#23
Charles Gadda Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New York, NY Posts: 249	The Times piece is excellent, but notice what she says about the Dead Sea Scrolls: "The situation reminds me of the deadlock that held scholarship back on the Dead Sea Scrolls decades ago. When manuscripts are hoarded by a few, it results in errors and monopoly interpretations that are very hard to overturn even after they are proved wrong." As I have shown in a number of articles, the somewhat deranged and offensive results of the Scrolls monopoly are still quite visible today, in an outrageously biased and misleading exhibit taking place in a "natural history" museum in San Diego. See my articles here for details: http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/did...ibit-san-diego So I think an important question is whether so-called "liberal" Christian biblical scholars who, like April DeConick, seek to do their research in accordance with basic scientific principles rather than any religious agenda, will part company with their Evangelical-minded colleagues and frankly condemn what is going on with the Dead Sea Scrolls in one museum exhibit after another.

12-04-2007, 10:18 AM	#25
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	April Deconick posts on her new translation of the Gospel of Judas and other matters at http://forbiddengospels.blogspot.com/ Andrew Criddle

12-10-2007, 11:18 AM	#27
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	Rereading the NG translation of the Gospel of Judas in the light of DeConick's arguments I was convinced in the light of parallels from other gnostic texts that Judas is indeed the earthly manifestation of the 13th aeon, and not an unusually enlightened human disciple. Whether this necessarily makes Judas in the Gospel of Judas as straightforwardly malevolent as April DeConick claims may be another matter. Andrew Criddle

05-31-2008, 01:39 PM	#29
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The Betrayal of Judas from the Chronicle of Higher Education. Nothing new, but some interesting quotes and observations on the politics of scholarship.

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