Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 01-08-2005, 02:06 PM

Seventh heaven

Does this help? Note Paul discusses going up to the seventh heaven.

Ted, are you assuming Hebrews is written by Paul?

andrewcriddle · 01-10-2005, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Seventh heaven

Does this help? Note Paul discusses going up to the seventh heaven.

Thanks for the link.

The Jewish Hekhalot traditions are certainly relevant but seem to originate sometime during the 2nd to 4th centuries CE.

Paul in the NT discusses going to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12)
The Gnostic Apocalypse of Paul from Nag Hammadi refers to seven heavens but this probably dates from the late 2nd century CE.

Andrew Criddle

Ted Hoffman · 01-10-2005, 08:59 AM

Quote:

But simply states by fiat that it means "Down" or "Down to". That is one of 8 or more possible definitions and that particular one needs to be defended.

No CX. I have just spent the last 1.5 hours looking at three different Lexicons: L & S, Arndt W.F and Gingrich F.W and Abbott Smith.

In its genitive, it first and foremost denotes motion from above (Od. 14.399, Iliad, 6.128, Ib.232,17.438. It can mean 'down into' as found in Plato's Republic 398, Id. Nub.177, Dem.403.4,Polyb I. 17,10., Il.19.39, Soph. Ant.24, Xen.Cyr.4.6,5, Aesch. Pers 689 etc.

In its accusative, it means 'motion downwards' Hdt.2.96,cf.I.194,4.44, Plat. Phaed. Theb.6. Dem. 284.25 etc

There are of course other meanings of kata per context but the ones above are the primary meanings. So, as far as I can see Carrier and Doherty are correct.

Quote:

Most reaonable scholars secular and Xian would translate KATA in the cases in question as "according to". This is rather ambiguous since it is probably a question of common usage in the period.

The word 'reasonable' is tendentious. You say it is ambiguous and yet claim reasonable scholars translate it as such.
What would "according to the flesh" mean?

Sarkinos means 'belonging in the realm of the flesh' - insofar as it is weak, sinful and transitory as opposed to the spirit. This usage is in Anth. Pal. I,107 , 1 Cor 3:4, 2 Cor 10 :4, 1 Pt. 2:11, Epict. App.D, 4, Maxim Tyr.11,10f., Cass. Dio. 38,21,3; Philo Sacr. Abel.63, Hb 7:16 etc.

Quote:

But it does not so strongly support the argument that KATA SARKA is evidence of descent into the sublunar realm or any other such goofy idea.

You are above using derogatory characterizations like "goofy idea" to describe ideas you do not agree with.
If it is goofy, readers will see for themselves: you dont have to intrude upon the discussion and attach silly labels to ideas you do not like.

Quote:

Says who?

Says the Lexicons.

Quote:

In the accusative case KATA has no fewer than 7 possible interpretations none of which is "Down to" which comes from the genitive.

So does the word "cup" - it has several meanings - when removed from context. Do you really think this argument can fly? Many words have secondary meanings but with kata, the primary meanings in the genitive and accusative are clear from any Lexicon.

Quote:

The decision as to which is the correct interpretation is highly subjective and choosing "down" and then shoehorning it into some notion of spheres of existence etc. is disingenuous and completely ad hoc.

The chosen meaning is based on context. Lets use one of the secondary meanings you claim Carrier needs to eliminate:

Jesus came concerning the flesh.

You expect Carrier to waste time explaining why kata cannot mean "concerning" in that context?

Or Jesus came after the flesh.

So, CX, your objections are invalid. I dont think I will notify Carrier about this: its too petty.

Ted Hoffman · 01-10-2005, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Seventh heaven

Does this help? Note Paul discusses going up to the seventh heaven.

Ted, are you assuming Hebrews is written by Paul?

Yes. And thanks for the link.

Haran · 01-10-2005, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Here goes (I emphasise this is what I think not what I claim can be proved.)

Interesting... Thanks, Andrew.

Haran · 01-10-2005, 07:56 PM

Ted,

So far, several verses have been mentioned with respect to the phrase(s) in question. Can we focus on one or two particular verses and spread out from there?

Since you, quoting Carrier, have put forward so many definitions for kata, I have become confused about the one that you/he/Doherty feel(s) fit your theory. If you would, please provide your translation of the verse or two of your choice, keeping in mind that "in the sphere of the flesh" is a translation not supported by any of the lexicons mentioned. Be as literal as possible with your translation(s), please. Implied meanings can be dealt with from the literal translation.

I just wanted to mention, briefly, that I do not understand Carrier's characterization of the "according to" as the translation of kata in the accusative case seemingly as a mistranslation or something. It seems almost as if he is implying that it is a "Christian translation". However, one can find "according to" in Homeric, classical Greek dictionaries as well. My understanding of kata, "according to", is to think of something "descended from/through" a person or thing. It is also used in this sense in the LXX, especially in Genesis, when speaking of such things as a living creature according to kind or ψυχην ζωσαν κατα γενος as in Genesis 1:24 and similarly in many other places.

Finally, I promise no in-depth debate, or even very timely replies, since my time is so limited, but I do wish to try and understand this argument better.

ficino · 01-10-2005, 08:00 PM

Ela, vre kaimene, ti les? Poios pragmatika xerei ta ellinika? Poios ta spoudase?

Sorry to sound nasty, guys, but who actually speaks and reads either ancient or Modern Greek on this thread? kata sarka can't plausibly mean anything other than "with respect to the flesh" or "according to the flesh," and the flesh in Paul is the physical body and all that pertains thereunto, as opposed to the glorified body in heaven. En pneumati means "in the spirit." There is no sublunary realm attained in reincarnation in Paul.

Haran · 01-10-2005, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ficino

Ela, vre kaimene, ti les? Poios pragmatika xerei ta ellinika? Poios ta spoudase?

Sorry to sound nasty, guys, but who actually speaks and reads either ancient or Modern Greek on this thread?

Apparently you, especially if you feel you can get away with sounding patronizing in Greek.

Thanks for the confirmation, though.

ficino · 01-10-2005, 08:23 PM

I know, I'm awful. I freaked out and I blame my DNA, my mother, my upbringing, my professors... everyone but my own arrogance. Couldn't resist.

Haran · 01-10-2005, 08:39 PM

Then drepese ligaki, ficino?

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01-08-2005, 02:06 PM	#51
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Seventh heaven Does this help? Note Paul discusses going up to the seventh heaven. Ted, are you assuming Hebrews is written by Paul?

01-10-2005, 07:56 PM	#56
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Ted, So far, several verses have been mentioned with respect to the phrase(s) in question. Can we focus on one or two particular verses and spread out from there? Since you, quoting Carrier, have put forward so many definitions for kata, I have become confused about the one that you/he/Doherty feel(s) fit your theory. If you would, please provide your translation of the verse or two of your choice, keeping in mind that "in the sphere of the flesh" is a translation not supported by any of the lexicons mentioned. Be as literal as possible with your translation(s), please. Implied meanings can be dealt with from the literal translation. I just wanted to mention, briefly, that I do not understand Carrier's characterization of the "according to" as the translation of kata in the accusative case seemingly as a mistranslation or something. It seems almost as if he is implying that it is a "Christian translation". However, one can find "according to" in Homeric, classical Greek dictionaries as well. My understanding of kata, "according to", is to think of something "descended from/through" a person or thing. It is also used in this sense in the LXX, especially in Genesis, when speaking of such things as a living creature according to kind or ψυχην ζωσαν κατα γενος as in Genesis 1:24 and similarly in many other places. Finally, I promise no in-depth debate, or even very timely replies, since my time is so limited, but I do wish to try and understand this argument better.

01-10-2005, 08:00 PM	#57
ficino Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York Posts: 252	Ela, vre kaimene, ti les? Poios pragmatika xerei ta ellinika? Poios ta spoudase? Sorry to sound nasty, guys, but who actually speaks and reads either ancient or Modern Greek on this thread? kata sarka can't plausibly mean anything other than "with respect to the flesh" or "according to the flesh," and the flesh in Paul is the physical body and all that pertains thereunto, as opposed to the glorified body in heaven. En pneumati means "in the spirit." There is no sublunary realm attained in reincarnation in Paul.

01-10-2005, 08:23 PM	#59
ficino Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York Posts: 252	I know, I'm awful. I freaked out and I blame my DNA, my mother, my upbringing, my professors... everyone but my own arrogance. Couldn't resist.

01-10-2005, 08:39 PM	#60
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Then drepese ligaki, ficino?

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