Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 05-26-2008, 10:11 AM

Could this passage in Mark, which deals with Jesus healing the blind man Bartimaeus (son of Timaeus, a reference to Plato's famous work?), possibly be a not-so-subtle call to Platonists to join them, with bar-timaeus representing the Platonists?

Note that this passage is the only place in Mark where Jesus is referred to as 'son of David', thus paralleling Bartimaeus (son of Timaeus).

The blindness then represents ignorance rather than physical blindness.

Is there any scholarly work that makes this link?

Toto · 05-26-2008, 11:13 AM

Michael Patella in Lord of the Cosmos: Mithras, Paul, and the Gospel of Mark (or via: amazon.co.uk) makes a connection at p 100:

Quote:

In Plato's Timaeus, Critias describes Timaeus as "our best astronomer. . . [who] had made it his special task to learn about the nature of the Universe" [citations omitted.] Timaeus sees the heavens, recognizes the stars, and explains the cosmos to Socrates in the company of Critias and Hermocrates. He observes a universe that is good, whole, and perfect. The cosmos that Timaeus sees is much different form the world that Mark describes in his Gospel; indeed, the world in Mark's Gospel, nearly in anthithesis to Timaeus's world, s the lot of nearly all humankind. In Mark's world are physical suffering, demonic possession, and death.

And, of course, irony.

Read more elucidation of the symbolism of the name and ethnicity of the beggar at: Google books

Patella describes this as a mimesis of Plato, in which Bartimeaus calls into question the bright moral order of Plato's Timeaus, and calls out to the Son of David for mercy, which is granted. This pericope seems to have been especially aimed at Jews who adopted Greek philosophy (the Bar indicating that the beggar was Jewish).

Toto · 05-26-2008, 11:26 AM

Interesting question.

Michael Turton quotes others scholars who say:

Quote:

"Bartimaeus" the name itself means "son of Timaeus." It is typical of the author of Mark to use this type of dual construction. "The two-step progression is one of the most pervasive patterns of repetition in Mark's Gospel. It occurs in phrases, clauses, pairs of sentences, and the structure of episodes" (Rhoads et al 1999, p49). This redactive pattern suggests that the name itself is probably invention. "Bar-teymah" means "son of poverty" in Aramaic (Price 2003, p148), or "son of the unclean" (Myers 1988, p282), another name that like "Jairus," echoes the meaning of the event.

A double meaning of the name is not out of the question. Turton goes on to note:

Quote:

Plato's Timaeus also contains a long discussion about the eye and vision:

"And of the organs they first contrived the eyes to give light, and the principle according to which they were inserted was as follows: So much of fire as would not burn, but gave a gentle light, they formed into a substance akin to the light of every-day life; and the pure fire which is within us and related thereto they made to flow through the eyes in a stream smooth and dense, compressing the whole eye, and especially the centre part, so that it kept out everything of a coarser nature, and allowed to pass only this pure element. When the light of day surrounds the stream of vision, then like falls upon like, and they coalesce, and one body is formed by natural affinity in the line of vision, wherever the light that falls from within meets with an external object. And the whole stream of vision, being similarly affected in virtue of similarity, diffuses the motions of what it touches or what touches it over the whole body, until they reach the soul, causing that perception which we call sight. But when night comes on and the external and kindred fire departs, then the stream of vision is cut off; for going forth to an unlike element it is changed and extinguished, being no longer of one nature with the surrounding atmosphere which is now deprived of fire: and so the eye no longer sees, and we feel disposed to sleep." (Jowett translation)

It is not difficult to see the parallel between Jesus -- about to be executed -- and Socrates, as well as Peter, James, and John, and Socrates' three friends. Socrates, like Jesus, is a tekton. Bar-Timaeus is blind, and Timaeus has a discussion of optics and the physics of the eye. Like Jesus, Socrates will enlighten his companions as to the truth. The parallel may be pushed further, but that would take us outside our task here. The name stinks of literary invention, and this would make it the only pericope in Mark with an origin in Plato or other Hellenistic literature. All in all, considering the odd structure (see below), this pericope is probably not from the hand of the original writer of Mark.

Bar-Timaeus also recalls the blind seer Tiresias, the famous Greek prophet, who sees truth though blind, just as Bar-Timaeus knows the truth that the King, the Son of David, is passing by, though he is blind. Although the text implies that Bartimaeus becomes a follower of Jesus, he disappears from the story after this incident.

Malachi151 · 05-26-2008, 11:38 AM

Interesting. I don't know if this is the case, but it does make sense. This is why I love the Gospel of Mark, such an interesting work...

the_cave · 05-26-2008, 12:36 PM

There may be a double meaning, but I can't tell if it's ironic or not. I sometimes think Bartimaeus represents Paul--the healing occurs in the midst of several Pauline references in Mark (this is on the theory that Mark is influenced by Paul, and not the other way around). Think of Paul's vision of the third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (assuming Paul is speaking of himself--that's the traditional assumption, but it might not be true.) In that reading, "bar-Timaeus" would be an ironic dig at Paul--the follower of Platonic mysticism is a blind man, who is restored to health when he is visited by Jesus. Perhaps also, then, "son of poverty/the unclean" could also be a double-dig at Paul.

On the other hand (of course), this might not have to do with Paul at all. It could be that Bartimaeus represents lay practitioners of Merkabah and Bereshit mysticism, which itself is linked to the Two Powers in Heaven controversy and various forms of angelology (see the books of Enoch). They are blind, because they don't recognize that Jesus is the one they're looking for--possibly this is why they might be "poor", and possibly it might be why they're "unclean"--because Merkabah mysticism and the Two Powers in Heaven controversy was treated skeptically by the more official powers within first- and second-century Judaism.

But then, maybe that does have to do with Paul--perhaps Paul's visionary experiences--or his affiliation with mystic-visionary communities--are related to Merkabah practice, whether directly or indirectly.

And, finally, it could be that "son of poverty/the unclean" isn't supposed to be insulting at all--perhaps Bartimaeus represents members of an Aramaic visionary community, dabbling in Platonic and Merkabah mysticism (perhaps related to early Mandaeanism) who were converted to early Christianity by Christian apostles. Or, perhaps they themselves were the source of the new religion.

Toto · 05-26-2008, 12:57 PM

There is more discussion in Sowing the Gospel: Mark's World in Literary-historical Perspective (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Mary Ann Tolbert, p. 189 (can be previewed on google books.)

There is an article by Robbins on JSTOR It appears that early analysts tried to claim that this story must have been historical, because this is one of the few places in the gospels where the person healed is given a name.

Solo · 05-26-2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Interesting question.

Michael Turton quotes others scholars who say:

Quote:

"Bartimaeus" the name itself means "son of Timaeus." It is typical of the author of Mark to use this type of dual construction. "The two-step progression is one of the most pervasive patterns of repetition in Mark's Gospel. It occurs in phrases, clauses, pairs of sentences, and the structure of episodes" (Rhoads et al 1999, p49). This redactive pattern suggests that the name itself is probably invention. "Bar-teymah" means "son of poverty" in Aramaic (Price 2003, p148), or "son of the unclean" (Myers 1988, p282), another name that like "Jairus," echoes the meaning of the event.

A double meaning of the name is not out of the question. Turton goes on to note:

Quote:

Plato's Timaeus also contains a long discussion about the eye and vision:

"And of the organs they first contrived the eyes to give light, and the principle according to which they were inserted was as follows: So much of fire as would not burn, but gave a gentle light, they formed into a substance akin to the light of every-day life; and the pure fire which is within us and related thereto they made to flow through the eyes in a stream smooth and dense, compressing the whole eye, and especially the centre part, so that it kept out everything of a coarser nature, and allowed to pass only this pure element. When the light of day surrounds the stream of vision, then like falls upon like, and they coalesce, and one body is formed by natural affinity in the line of vision, wherever the light that falls from within meets with an external object. And the whole stream of vision, being similarly affected in virtue of similarity, diffuses the motions of what it touches or what touches it over the whole body, until they reach the soul, causing that perception which we call sight. But when night comes on and the external and kindred fire departs, then the stream of vision is cut off; for going forth to an unlike element it is changed and extinguished, being no longer of one nature with the surrounding atmosphere which is now deprived of fire: and so the eye no longer sees, and we feel disposed to sleep." (Jowett translation)

It is not difficult to see the parallel between Jesus -- about to be executed -- and Socrates, as well as Peter, James, and John, and Socrates' three friends. Socrates, like Jesus, is a tekton. Bar-Timaeus is blind, and Timaeus has a discussion of optics and the physics of the eye. Like Jesus, Socrates will enlighten his companions as to the truth. The parallel may be pushed further, but that would take us outside our task here. The name stinks of literary invention, and this would make it the only pericope in Mark with an origin in Plato or other Hellenistic literature. All in all, considering the odd structure (see below), this pericope is probably not from the hand of the original writer of Mark.

Bar-Timaeus also recalls the blind seer Tiresias, the famous Greek prophet, who sees truth though blind, just as Bar-Timaeus knows the truth that the King, the Son of David, is passing by, though he is blind. Although the text implies that Bartimaeus becomes a follower of Jesus, he disappears from the story after this incident.

Gordon Lathrop has an even more curious pointer. In the part of the expose where Plato's Timaeus links expressly sight to the origin of philosophy (God invented and gave us sight to behold the course of intelligence in the heaven), the protagonist casually mentions that even an "ordinary man" deprived of the faculty would bewail his loss. Plato however does not say "ordinary man" when he has Timaeus speak of a non-philosopher, but "blind man".

text on pages 28 & 29 of the e-book.

Jiri

Toto · 05-26-2008, 02:19 PM

Gordon Lathrop Holy Ground: A Liturgical Cosmology (or via: amazon.co.uk)

JoeWallack · 05-27-2008, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Could this passage in Mark, which deals with Jesus healing the blind man Bartimaeus (son of Timaeus, a reference to Plato's famous work?), possibly be a not-so-subtle call to Platonists to join them, with bar-timaeus representing the Platonists?

Note that this passage is the only place in Mark where Jesus is referred to as 'son of David', thus paralleling Bartimaeus (son of Timaeus).

The blindness then represents ignorance rather than physical blindness.

Is there any scholarly work that makes this link?

JW:
Werner Kelber righteously points out in Mark's Story of Jesus that the Blind BarTimaeus story is one of two blind healing stories that Frames "Mark's" Jesus' journey from Caesarea Philippi to Jerusalem:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_8

Quote:

8:22 And they come unto Bethsaida. And they bring to him a blind man, and beseech him to touch him.

8:23 And he took hold of the blind man by the hand, and brought him out of the village; and when he had spit on his eyes, and laid his hands upon him, he asked him, Seest thou aught?

8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men; for I behold [them] as trees, walking.

8:25 Then again he laid his hands upon his eyes; and he looked stedfastly, and was restored, and saw all things clearly.

8:26 And he sent him away to his home, saying, Do not even enter into the village.

8:27 And Jesus went forth, and his disciples, into the villages of Caesarea Philippi: and on the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Who do men say that I am?

I've already indicated that I think Caesarea Philippi here has a source of 1 Thessalonians:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?tit...hessalonians_2

Quote:

2:2 but having suffered before and been shamefully treated, as ye know, at Philippi, we waxed bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God in much conflict.

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_10

Quote:

10:45 For the Son of man also came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

10:46 And they come to Jericho: and as he went out from Jericho, with his disciples and a great multitude, the son of Timaeus, Bartimaeus, a blind beggar, was sitting by the way side.

10:47 And when he heard that it was Jesus the Nazarene, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.

10:48 And many rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried out the more a great deal, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.

10:49 And Jesus stood still, and said, Call ye him. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good cheer: rise, he calleth thee.

10:50 And he, casting away his garment, sprang up, and came to Jesus.

10:51 And Jesus answered him, and said, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? And the blind man said unto him, Rabboni, that I may receive my sight.

10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And straightway he received his sight, and followed him in the way.

11:1 And when they draw nigh unto Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth two of his disciples,

In this section of "Mark" the Theme is Jesus' unsuccessfully trying to make the Disciples see the necessity of the Passion. This is Ironically Contrasted with Jesus successfully making complete strangers see.

Since "Mark" as a whole is clearly fiction and this specific restoring sight story is as well, this opens the door for "Timaeus" to have been selected here for a Literary (fiction) purpose. In Mark's view of the disciples I also Inventoried "Mark's" use of Names as a Literary (fiction) device. To the extent this can be demonstrated this also opens the door to specific use of "Timaeus" as a Literary device.

The Etymology of "Timaeus" is favorable to a Literary use here:

http://www.behindthename.com/nm/t2.php

Quote:

TIMOTHEUS m Ancient Greek (Latinized), German
Latinized form of Τιμοθεος (Timotheos) (see TIMOTHY).

TIMOTHY m English, Biblical
From the Greek name Τιμοθεος (Timotheos) meaning "honouring God", derived from τιμαω (timao) "to honour" and θεος (theos) "god"... [more]

Again, this fits 1 Thessalonians (literally and figuratively):

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?tit...hessalonians_3

Quote:

3:2 and sent Timothy, our brother and God`s minister in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort [you] concerning your faith;

3:3 that no man be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that hereunto we are appointed.

3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you beforehand that we are to suffer affliction; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

3:5 For this cause I also, when I could no longer forbear, sent that I might know your faith, lest by any means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor should be in vain.

3:6 But when Timothy came even now unto us from you, and brought us glad tidings of your faith and love, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, longing to see us, even as we also [to see] you;

The literal connection. The figurative connection is:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?tit...hessalonians_2

Quote:

2:4 but even as we have been approved of God to be intrusted with the gospel, so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God who proveth our hearts.

"[B](timao) "to honour" and θεος (theos) "god""

The figurative connection.

Additionally, "Mark" has a Literary technique of using Aramaic to give special emphasis to words as his Literary ABBA Paul did.

Arguing against "Timaeus" as historical is that "Mark" also has a Literary technique in general of not naming favorable characters such as what'sherface?

Thus, in addition to the candidate for the Historical party, we also have the following candidates for the reason behind "Timaeus Bartimaeus" all potentially on the same ticket:

1) A reference to Plato's famous work.

2) A reference to the Timothy of "1 Thessalonians".

3) A reference to the etymology of the name.

Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

andrewcriddle · 05-27-2008, 11:42 AM

JoeWallack made a somewhat similar point but IMO IF the name is meant symbolically, the symbolism comes from the point that Timaeus in Aramaic means something like poverty or uncleanness whereas in Greek it means something like honour.

There may be an ironic contrast between "son of uncleanness", (how the unfortunate individual is regarded by his fellows) and "son of honour", (how he is regarded by Jesus).

Andrew Criddle

05-26-2008, 10:11 AM	#1
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	Mark 10:46, does Bartimaeus represent followers of Plato? Could this passage in Mark, which deals with Jesus healing the blind man Bartimaeus (son of Timaeus, a reference to Plato's famous work?), possibly be a not-so-subtle call to Platonists to join them, with bar-timaeus representing the Platonists? Note that this passage is the only place in Mark where Jesus is referred to as 'son of David', thus paralleling Bartimaeus (son of Timaeus). The blindness then represents ignorance rather than physical blindness. Is there any scholarly work that makes this link?

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05-26-2008, 11:38 AM	#4
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Interesting. I don't know if this is the case, but it does make sense. This is why I love the Gospel of Mark, such an interesting work...

05-26-2008, 12:36 PM	#5
the_cave Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 1,443	There may be a double meaning, but I can't tell if it's ironic or not. I sometimes think Bartimaeus represents Paul--the healing occurs in the midst of several Pauline references in Mark (this is on the theory that Mark is influenced by Paul, and not the other way around). Think of Paul's vision of the third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (assuming Paul is speaking of himself--that's the traditional assumption, but it might not be true.) In that reading, "bar-Timaeus" would be an ironic dig at Paul--the follower of Platonic mysticism is a blind man, who is restored to health when he is visited by Jesus. Perhaps also, then, "son of poverty/the unclean" could also be a double-dig at Paul. On the other hand (of course), this might not have to do with Paul at all. It could be that Bartimaeus represents lay practitioners of Merkabah and Bereshit mysticism, which itself is linked to the Two Powers in Heaven controversy and various forms of angelology (see the books of Enoch). They are blind, because they don't recognize that Jesus is the one they're looking for--possibly this is why they might be "poor", and possibly it might be why they're "unclean"--because Merkabah mysticism and the Two Powers in Heaven controversy was treated skeptically by the more official powers within first- and second-century Judaism. But then, maybe that does have to do with Paul--perhaps Paul's visionary experiences--or his affiliation with mystic-visionary communities--are related to Merkabah practice, whether directly or indirectly. And, finally, it could be that "son of poverty/the unclean" isn't supposed to be insulting at all--perhaps Bartimaeus represents members of an Aramaic visionary community, dabbling in Platonic and Merkabah mysticism (perhaps related to early Mandaeanism) who were converted to early Christianity by Christian apostles. Or, perhaps they themselves were the source of the new religion.

05-26-2008, 12:57 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There is more discussion in Sowing the Gospel: Mark's World in Literary-historical Perspective (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Mary Ann Tolbert, p. 189 (can be previewed on google books.) There is an article by Robbins on JSTOR It appears that early analysts tried to claim that this story must have been historical, because this is one of the few places in the gospels where the person healed is given a name.

05-26-2008, 02:19 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Gordon Lathrop Holy Ground: A Liturgical Cosmology (or via: amazon.co.uk)

05-27-2008, 11:42 AM	#10
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	JoeWallack made a somewhat similar point but IMO IF the name is meant symbolically, the symbolism comes from the point that Timaeus in Aramaic means something like poverty or uncleanness whereas in Greek it means something like honour. There may be an ironic contrast between "son of uncleanness", (how the unfortunate individual is regarded by his fellows) and "son of honour", (how he is regarded by Jesus). Andrew Criddle

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