Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 12-25-2012, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPIPHANIUS

. The subject of Christ's advent is in it as well, and the confession of the truth.

The confession of the truth in terms of an orthodox Christian auto de fe is first attested by Ammianus during the rule of Constantius. These confessions were being managed at Scythopolis, half way between Antioch and Alexandria, from which two major cities thousands of civilians were brought before orthodox Christian torturors in order that they might be tortured and confess the truth. (Obviously the truth about Chrests/Christs recently enforced advent). These atrocities were being enacted under the rule of the Christian Emperor only decades before Epiphanius wrote his Panarion.

Toto · 12-25-2012, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPIPHANIUS

. The subject of Christ's advent is in it as well, and the confession of the truth.

The confession of the truth in terms of an orthodox Christian auto de fe is first attested by Ammianus during the rule of Constantius. These confessions were being managed at Scythopolis, half way between Antioch and Alexandria, from which two major cities thousands of civilians were brought before orthodox Christian torturors in order that they might be tortured and confess the truth. (Obviously the truth about Chrests/Christs recently enforced advent). These atrocities were being enacted under the rule of the Christian Emperor only decades before Epiphanius wrote his Panarion.

Pete - the auto da fe was a much later practice of the Inquisition.

You keep throwing out bits from Rassias' book, as if no one had ever challenged it.

Archived thread on alleged Christian death camps

mountainman · 12-25-2012, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPIPHANIUS

. The subject of Christ's advent is in it as well, and the confession of the truth.

The confession of the truth in terms of an orthodox Christian auto de fe is first attested by Ammianus during the rule of Constantius. These confessions were being managed at Scythopolis, half way between Antioch and Alexandria, from which two major cities thousands of civilians were brought before orthodox Christian torturors in order that they might be tortured and confess the truth. (Obviously the truth about Chrests/Christs recently enforced advent). These atrocities were being enacted under the rule of the Christian Emperor only decades before Epiphanius wrote his Panarion.

Pete - the auto da fe was a much later practice of the Inquisition.

You keep throwing out bits from Rassias' book, as if no one had ever challenged it.

Archived thread on alleged Christian death camps

Toto - I took this question to the historum ancient history forum:

http://www.historum.com/ancient-hist...tml#post964904

See specifically the responses of sulla1 from post #25.

The evidence is in Ammianus.

If you'd like to split this out to another thread I will restate the portions of the text of Ammianus that are relevant to support the position that we have here the first attested Auto de Fe of all Christian history.

Toto · 12-25-2012, 07:49 PM

I had some trouble loading that page, so here is the post from sylla1 (banned)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kookaburra Jack
Vlasis Rassias' book DEMOLISH THEM (in Greek) (in English -- abridged), published in Greek, Athens 2000 (2nd edition), Anichti Poli Editions, ISBN 960-7748-20-4, among many items, states the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlasis Rassias

359 CE
In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

I have searched for a source for this claim, and perhaps have found it in the following account of Ammianus. Does anyone have any opinions or any further information on this issue?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ammianus

SOURCE

XII.

§ 1. But amid these causes of anxiety, as if in accordance with old-established custom, instead of the signal for civil war, the trumpet sounded groundless charges of treason, and a secretary, whom we shall often have to speak of, named Paulus, was sent to inquire into these charges. He was a man skilful in all the contrivances of cruelty, making gain and profit of tortures and executions, as a master of gladiators does of his fatal games.

2. For as he was firm and resolute in his purpose of |208 injuring people, he did not abstain even from theft, and invented all kinds of causes for the destruction of innocent men, while engaged in this miserable campaign.

3. A slight and trivial circumstance afforded infinite material for extending his investigations. There is a town called Abydum in the most remote corner of the Egyptian Thebais, where an oracle of the god, known in that region by the name of Besa, had formerly enjoyed some celebrity for its prophecies, and had sacred rites performed at it with all the ceremonies anciently in use in the neighbouring districts.

4. Some used to go themselves to consult this oracle, some to send by others documents containing their wishes, and with prayers couched in explicit language inquired the will of the deities; and the paper or parchment on which their wants were written, after the answer had been given, was sometimes left in the temple.

5. Some of these were spitefully sent to the emperor, and he, narrow minded as he was, though often deaf to other matters of serious consequence, had, as the proverb says, a soft place in his ear for this kind of information; and being of a suspicious and petty temper, became full of gall and fury; and immediately ordered Paulus to repair with all speed to the East, giving him authority, as to a chief of great eminence and experience, to try all the causes as he pleased.

6. And Modestus also, at that time count of the East, a man well suited for such a business, was joined with him in this commission. For Hermogenes of Pontus, at that time prefect of the praetorium, was passed over as of too gentle a disposition.

7. Paulus proceeded, as he was ordered, full of deadly eagerness and rage; inviting all kinds of calumnies, so that numbers from every part of the empire were brought before him, noble and low born alike; some of whom were condemned to imprisonment, others to instant death.

8. The city which was chosen to witness these fatal scenes was Scythopolis in Palestine, which for two reasons seemed the most suitable of all places; first, because it was little frequented and secondly, because it was halfway between Antioch and Alexandria, from which city many of those brought before this tribunal came.

This the Chapter XII of the Book XIX of Ammianus' Res Gestae, and if you continue reading up to §20, you will see what was placed ay Scythopolis was just a tribunal; the number of victims was presumably great, because

Quote:

...as accusations extended more widely, involving numbers without end in their snares, many perished; some with their bodies mangled on the rack; others were condemned to death and confiscation of their goods; while Paulus kept on inventing groundless accusations, as if he had a store of lies on which to draw, and suggesting various pretences for injuring people, so that on his nod, it may he said, the safety of every one in the place depended. For if any one wore on his neck a charm against the quartan ague or any other disease, or if by any information laid by his ill-wishers he was accused of having passed by a sepulchre at nightfall, and therefore of being a sorcerer, and one who dealt in the horrors of tombs and the vain mockeries of the shades which haunt them, he was found guilty and condemned to death.
(Op. cit. XIII-XIV)

Ergo, it seems that what we have here was far from any concentration camp; it was essentially the first attested Auto de Fe of all Christian history.

Toto · 12-25-2012, 08:17 PM

From the archived thread

The falsehood ascribed to Scythopolis

Chili · 12-25-2012, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

From the archived thread

The falsehood ascribed to Scythopolis

Just Protestant theology, I think.

mountainman · 12-25-2012, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

From the archived thread

The falsehood ascribed to Scythopolis

Here are the first 4 summarised arguments against the term "death camps"

I have replied to each below ...

Quote:

To summarize, it becomes more than obvious to any objective person that:

1. the Scythopolis courts were not «death camps»,

The more appropriate claim is that this was the first attested auto da fe.

See below for what an auto de fe is ...

Quote:

2. they were not oriented towards exterminating the Gentiles on the basis of their religion,

This is false, as stated in Ammianus on the page cited ...

Quote:

4. And, since some people in person and other people through others, would send a written list of their wishes, asking what the will of the gods was, having detailed their wishes specifically, these documents that contained their requests and their lists with their wishes would be left behind, sometimes inside the temple of the oracle, even after the response had been given by the god.

5. Some of those written lists with wishes containing malignant intentions were sent to the emperor, who, although turning a deaf ear to other, more serious matters, in this point was “softer than an earlobe” as the saying goes, and, being suspicious and narrow-minded, became furious. He immediately summoned Paul to come to the East, giving him, as though he were a leader famous for his experience, the power to conduct trials according to his arbitrary decision

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3. nor was there any territorial persecution of Gentiles,

From Ammianus on the cited page ....

Quote:

8. And Scythopolis was elected as the theatre of torture and death; a town of Palestine, which for two reasons appeared more suitable than any other: because it is isolated and because it is situated in the middle between Antioch and Alexandria, cities from which most of those subpoenaed originated from.

Quote:

4. nor were all the accused necessarily put to death by those courts,

From Ammianus .... note that the site references to Ammianus stop at 18.
The following is from verse 20 which has been (conveniently?) omitted ...

Quote:

...as accusations extended more widely, involving numbers without end in their snares, many perished; some with their bodies mangled on the rack; others were condemned to death and confiscation of their goods; while Paulus kept on inventing groundless accusations, as if he had a store of lies on which to draw, and suggesting various pretences for injuring people, so that on his nod, it may he said, the safety of every one in the place depended. For if any one wore on his neck a charm against the quartan ague or any other disease, or if by any information laid by his ill-wishers he was accused of having passed by a sepulchre at nightfall, and therefore of being a sorcerer, and one who dealt in the horrors of tombs and the vain mockeries of the shades which haunt them, he was found guilty and condemned to death.

WIKI on auto da fe ...

Quote:

An auto-da-fé (also auto da fé and auto de fe) was the ritual of public penance of condemned heretics and apostates that took place when the Spanish Inquisition or the Portuguese Inquisition had decided their punishment, followed by the execution by the civil authorities of the sentences imposed. Both auto de fe in medieval Spanish and auto da fé in Portuguese mean "act of faith".

The most extreme punishment imposed on those convicted was execution by burning. As the execution was more memorable than the penance which preceded it, in popular use the term auto-da-fé came to mean the punishment rather than the penance

mountainman · 12-26-2012, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

From the archived thread

The falsehood ascribed to Scythopolis

BTW I seem to recall that this is highly related to response at http://www.tektonics.org/

The hardest-hitting Christian apologetics Web site on the Net. answering Bible difficulties and Bible contradictions

Were you aware of this?

mountainman · 01-01-2013, 06:33 PM

I dug up the reference on the talk page for INQUISITION

Quote:

http://www.tektonics.org/af/crimeline.htm tends to refute the theory of religious motivation.

The Emperors did a lot of unpleasant things, before and after becoming Christian. The Christians had just "taken over." This implies a large cadre of "inquisitors" which, a few years earlier, had been hiding in the cellar, as it were. Doesn't seem quite plausible.

And anyway, Marcellinus, a pagan, doesn't associate the activities with Christianity, which he would have every motive to do, if the accusation were true. Student7 (talk) 18:04, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

The hard hitting apologists link to the earlier article, the summary of which I have disputed above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apologist

The Emperors did a lot of unpleasant things, before and after becoming Christian. The Christians had just "taken over." This implies a large cadre of "inquisitors" which, a few years earlier, had been hiding in the cellar, as it were. Doesn't seem quite plausible.

Is this an argument? Does it deal with the evidence (ie: Ammianus?)

Quote:

And anyway, Marcellinus, a pagan, doesn't associate the activities with Christianity, which he would have every motive to do, if the accusation were true.

Ammianus explicitly states that the emperor was a member of the plain and simple religion of the Christians. (See his obituary). The emperor appointed the executioner and the tribunal.

They say

Quote:

359 Death camps Christianity's first death camp is established at Skythopolis, Syria; 1000s of gentiles are exterminated over 30 year period. False. Pearse notes: This can only be a reference to the Arian Bishop of Scythopolis, Patrophilus, who cruelly abused Christian bishops exiled to his see under Constantius. These included Eusebius of Vercelli. It was not a death-camp, nor did it last 30 years, nor were pagans the victims. A reader also recommends a site here.

The evidence remains for the existence of mass executions under Constantius' rule at this tribunal in Scythopolis.

We can argue over whether it was a death camp, an auto da fe, a religious inquisition, or something else.

But it is clear to me that the apologists are attempting to downplay this incident.

mountainman · 01-02-2013, 03:17 AM

Can anyone find the archived threads that recorded at least one and possibly two separate collaborative attempts to go through the list of atrocities (Christian persecution of the pagans in the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries) collated by Vlasis Rassias, in his book Demolish Them!

Both attempts failed because a breakdown of communication between those who were examining the evidence for the claims made by Vlasis Rassias.

Here is a an archive of a usenet post.
Original Source: Vlasis Rassias, Demolish Them!
Published in Greek, Athens 1994
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_060.htm

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12-25-2012, 08:17 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	From the archived thread The falsehood ascribed to Scythopolis

01-02-2013, 03:17 AM	#10
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Can anyone find the archived threads that recorded at least one and possibly two separate collaborative attempts to go through the list of atrocities (Christian persecution of the pagans in the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries) collated by Vlasis Rassias, in his book Demolish Them! Both attempts failed because a breakdown of communication between those who were examining the evidence for the claims made by Vlasis Rassias. Here is a an archive of a usenet post. Original Source: Vlasis Rassias, Demolish Them! Published in Greek, Athens 1994 http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_060.htm

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