Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Robert Wahler · 04-04-2012, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Hi, Jiri. My posting was addressing the context and content of what is contained in the Baptist story in relation to the prophets. Perhaps you could address that more directly.

Hi Duvduv,
Ehrman's belief that the JtB must be histotical because it is "independently attested" and embarrassing to the Christian communities strikes me as naive, especially since he does not have a good sense to consider other "evidence". My take on JtB is that it is a transparent midrash on the investiture of Joshua in the OT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua 3:2-10

At the end of three days the officers went through the camp and commanded the people, "When you see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God being carried by the Levitical priests, then you shall set out from your place and follow it,

that you may know the way you shall go, for you have not passed this way before. Yet there shall be a space between you and it, a distance of about two thousand cubits; do not come near it."

And Joshua said to the people, "Sanctify yourselves; for tomorrow the LORD will do wonders among you."

And Joshua said to the priests, "Take up the ark of the covenant, and pass on before the people." And they took up the ark of the covenant, and went before the people.

And the LORD said to Joshua, "This day I will begin to exalt you in the sight of all Israel, that they may know that, as I was with Moses, so I will be with you.

And you shall command the priests who bear the ark of the covenant, 'When you come to the brink of the waters of the Jordan, you shall stand still in the Jordan.'"

And Joshua said to the people of Israel, "Come hither, and hear the words of the LORD your God."

And Joshua said, "Hereby you shall know that the living God is among you, ..."

I have bolded the parts which I believe are relevant for the Baptist scene...

1) "At the end of three days".... this I believe has was written into the resurrectional symbology, in the circular design of Mark.

2) "Sanctify yourself".....here it is proclaimed by Joshua himself; in Mark's rendering it passes to JtB

3)"the ark of the covenant"....allusion to the new covenant that Jesus Christ represents (2 Cr 3:6)

4) "This day I will begin to exalt you"... Mark 1:10-11

5) "Jordan" Mk 1:5

So the idea that the baptism had to be historical because it was embarrassing to the Markan community would not stand, I am sure.

Best,
Jiri

All Joshua is mystic parable. The Ark is the Word, or Holy Spirit. The waters held back are spirit. All of the Bible is metaphor. Exodus, Jericho, Jonah, David/Goliath, walking on water, Lazarus raised, Judas the traitor -- ALL metaphor (or overwrite, like "Judas").

Robert Wahler · 04-04-2012, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Why would Josephus invent John the Baptist? It doesn't make sense to say that Josephus' JBap passage is a Christian interpolation, because it does not say anything about John announcing the Messiah or even anything apocalyptic.

There is more reason to think John was real than Jesus. Historical accounts are better. James was even more likely real, and all were Masters, unless James was actually Jesus. I think a good case could be made for that. Two of his most famous quotes are actually from James' lips ("Father forgive them for they know not what they do", and "You will see the Son of man coming in Power and on the clouds of heaven" -- James. Read Robert Eisenman).

Duvduv · 04-04-2012, 04:52 PM

It should be noted that despite the statement from Matthew 3 (below) not a single traditional Jewish source mentions him a single time (I am not including Josephus). The Baptist was viewed as having a power to eradicate sins from someone confessing and being baptized.

5 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Wahler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Why would Josephus invent John the Baptist? It doesn't make sense to say that Josephus' JBap passage is a Christian interpolation, because it does not say anything about John announcing the Messiah or even anything apocalyptic.

There is more reason to think John was real than Jesus. Historical accounts are better. James was even more likely real, and all were Masters, unless James was actually Jesus. I think a good case could be made for that. Two of his most famous quotes are actually from James' lips ("Father forgive them for they know not what they do", and "You will see the Son of man coming in Power and on the clouds of heaven" -- James. Read Robert Eisenman).

sotto voce · 04-05-2012, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Wahler

Two of his most famous quotes are actually from James' lips ("Father forgive them for they know not what they do", and "You will see the Son of man coming in Power and on the clouds of heaven" -- James. Read Robert Eisenman).

Complete drivel.

Jedi Mind Trick · 04-05-2012, 08:30 AM

Defeat the competition by making their leader subservient to your leader.

Duvduv · 04-05-2012, 09:29 AM

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the four gospels specifically sought to integrate a now lost "gospel" of John the Baptist into the Jesus story to varying extents, with GLuke adding the most, with the birth story. In GJohn he is called only John and not "the Baptist" and the story of his imprisonment is left out with a mere mention in passing in chapter 3.

I suppose the Mandaeans have some remnants of the Gospel of John the Baptist in their (later) writings as well.

steve_bnk · 04-05-2012, 09:50 AM

From a literary perspective, he was the protagagonist who sets the story in motion.

sotto voce · 04-05-2012, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the four gospels specifically sought to integrate a now lost "gospel" of John the Baptist into the Jesus story to varying extents, with GLuke adding the most, with the birth story.

Perhaps it would if one thought it acceptable to ascribe devious motive. But then that could apply in any direction.

Duvduv · 04-05-2012, 09:54 AM

Why devious motives? They sincerely believed that the Baptist was the precursor to the Christ, so therefore the Christ gospel superceded the JtB Gospel and because of his important role parts of that gospel got integrated into the Christ gospels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the four gospels specifically sought to integrate a now lost "gospel" of John the Baptist into the Jesus story to varying extents, with GLuke adding the most, with the birth story.

Perhaps it would if one thought it acceptable to ascribe devious motive. But then that could apply in any direction.

sotto voce · 04-05-2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Why devious motives? They sincerely believed that the Baptist was the precursor to the Christ, so therefore the Christ gospel superceded the JtB Gospel and because of his important role parts of that gospel got integrated into the Christ gospels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the four gospels specifically sought to integrate a now lost "gospel" of John the Baptist into the Jesus story to varying extents, with GLuke adding the most, with the birth story.

Perhaps it would if one thought it acceptable to ascribe devious motive. But then that could apply in any direction.

That's alright then.

04-05-2012, 08:30 AM	#175
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Triangulation! Defeat the competition by making their leader subservient to your leader.

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04-05-2012, 09:29 AM	#176
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Wouldn't it be fair to say that the four gospels specifically sought to integrate a now lost "gospel" of John the Baptist into the Jesus story to varying extents, with GLuke adding the most, with the birth story. In GJohn he is called only John and not "the Baptist" and the story of his imprisonment is left out with a mere mention in passing in chapter 3. I suppose the Mandaeans have some remnants of the Gospel of John the Baptist in their (later) writings as well.

04-05-2012, 09:50 AM	#177
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	From a literary perspective, he was the protagagonist who sets the story in motion.

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